You keep making this comparison and it's dumb for numerous reasons. First, Meyer was a nationally recognizable coach before he came to UF having won a national coach of the year award meaning he had more credibility and thus more leeway coming in. Second, we finished Meyer's first year having won 4 of our last 5 games including a blowout of rival FSU. That's slightly different from finishing with 3 straight blowout losses including the worst bowl loss in school history don't ya think? The trends for those first seasons are completely different. One finished on a high, the other completely bottomed out. And lastly, Meyer secured the consensus #1 class in the nation after his first season providing even more hope for future seasons while our class just finished with a thud. Now please tell me in what way either of the seasons are alike? Only a simpleton would look at records only to make a comparison without taking all circumstances into account.
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You keep making this comparison and it's dumb for numerous reasons. First, Meyer was a nationally recognizable coach before he came to UF having won a national coach of the year award meaning he had more credibility and thus more leeway coming in. Second, we finished Meyer's first year having won 4 of our last 5 games including a blowout of rival FSU. That's slightly different from finishing with 3 straight blowout losses including the worst bowl loss in school history don't ya think? The trends for those first seasons are completely different. One finished on a high, the other completely bottomed out. And lastly, Meyer secured the consensus #1 class in the nation after his first season providing even more hope for future seasons while our class just finished with a thud. Now please tell me in what way either of the seasons are alike? Only a simpleton would look at records only to make a comparison without taking all circumstances into account.
Urban was as close a sure thing as I've ever seen. His previous team at Utah was NC worthy. I knew he was going to bury us.
Mac is a guy who had a decent couple seasons at Colorado State.
I think the only comparison I've made about Mac and Spurrier was that he is the best Xs and Os coach we've had since Steve.
That and his personality is very similar.
That and his personality is very similar.
At this same point in the Meyer tenure we were on fire. Mac got absolutely pounded by Saban, Fisher and Harbaugh, who all coincidentally had great classes last year. It is different, not a little different but two totally different places.
Also, when Mac was hired most people were excited with the one caviat being that he was not a 'big name' and we hoped he could convince recruits to come. Now we take that concern and make excuses? I think most knew this was indeed the concern we had. He has a Spurrier-esque personality and seems to manage games well, no one has denied that. What offense we will run, he says Spurrier, recruits to the Bama O model, so I think time will tell. At this point to me his two glaring weaknesses are recruiting and I think our staff, including coordinators is pretty average, if not below average.
Meyer is a better coach than McElwain but again I think Meyer is one of the GOAT. Meyer beat a bad FSU team in his first season. Yes they are a rival but the FSU team that McElwain went againt and the FSU team Meyer went against aren't even comparable. Meyer went 9-3 in his first season and McElwain went 10-4. Very comparable. Yes Meyer finished the season on a winning streak but Meyer didn't have to play against teams as good as FSU, Bama and Michigan to finish the season either. You mentioned Meyer won 4 of his last 5 games but you didn't mention how that loss was against a not very good South Carolina team.
Who was handed a better roster from the previous coach Mac or Meyer? Meyer inherited a better roster than McElwain. Meyer had a proven QB (Leak) and an Oline with some skills players (Andre Caldwell, Chad Jackson, Cornelius Ingram, Dallas Baker, Jemalle Cornelius). Zook actually recruited the offensive side of the ball unlike Muschamp.
You take a step back and compare the 2 seasons and it could be argued that McElwain did more with less than Meyer in their first seasons at UF.
Is McElwain a better coach than Meyer? Heck no and he likely isn't ever going to be but to start making some of the assumptions that McElwain is going to be a failure is just dumb after 1 season.
And this is coming from somebody who thinks Urban Meyer is one of the GOAT
God.
Mark it down. As I take a shot to hide my shame.
I agree with Paco.
But, again. Meyer and Saban are CEO coaches, and Meyer specifically has a short lifespan at any school.
Spurrier and Mac are game day coaches. All I want to see from Mac is better recruiting. And I think last year he played it safe too early trying to get sure things in case it was a mediocre or bad season. Let's be honest, who thought we would win 10 games and take the East?
And who can argue that the offensive talent in Meyer'sfirst year at EVERY position, was better than what Mac had (except for potentially RB due to the stylistic neccessity).
Mark it down. As I take a shot to hide my shame.
I agree with Paco.
But, again. Meyer and Saban are CEO coaches, and Meyer specifically has a short lifespan at any school.
Spurrier and Mac are game day coaches. All I want to see from Mac is better recruiting. And I think last year he played it safe too early trying to get sure things in case it was a mediocre or bad season. Let's be honest, who thought we would win 10 games and take the East?
And who can argue that the offensive talent in Meyer'sfirst year at EVERY position, was better than what Mac had (except for potentially RB due to the stylistic neccessity).
Also.
Here's to panties. They may not be the greatest, but they're right next to it.
Cheers.
Here's to panties. They may not be the greatest, but they're right next to it.
Cheers.
Some good points, but some very flawed ideas too. FSU and Bama were VERY good teams this past year. But its not losing as much as we look inept and unprepared in those games. Now one could argue that Meyer wasn't handcuffed by a terrible OC like Bustmeir, BUT Mac hired that clown. As for MeatChicken, we were EASILY more talented man to man than that team and it isn't close. Just ask Numbers and Insta how bad the roster Bustmeir had at MeatChicken. So that loss, by that margin was beyond inexcusable.
And you keep dodging the biggest difference, Mac's bump class was average at best while Meyer's may be one of the best classes of all time.
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The argument isn't about who is better because there isn't any argument.
You are essentially arguing that Meyer went 9-3 and Mac went 10-4, so their first seasons are the same. As I just showed, they weren't. It's about direction and momentum. Meyer's team got better and better as the year went along, while Mac's team regressed tremendously. Now I know the popular meme is to blame it all on the QB, but freaking Vandy and FAU outCOACHED and outplayed us. Point being yes the record of the two coaches were essentially the same after year 1, but the trends are nowhere near the same. Meyer was doing nothing but trending up...won 4 of the last 5, had a monster class coming in, had an all-star staff, etc. Mac on the other hand got embarrassed for three straight games, gave us our worst bowl loss in school history, and had the worst bump class in two decades at UF. I was MUCH more confident in the direction of the program after year 1 under Meyer despite no SEC Championship game appearance.
All that said am i completely down on Mac? No. I think he's a damn good gameday coach and I like his vision for the program. He's getting Foley to actually invest money in the damn program. But he has what appears to be one glaring wart...recruiting. Only a handful of coaches are good enough coaches to overcome that. If Mac proves to be one of those types then I won't care as much because it won't hurt us as a program.
Little different when it's your guy on the receiving end of criticism, huh bud?
One wonders how the team might have progressed had Meyer lost Leak prior to the UGA game.
And on top of that had 3 true freshmen starting on the oline like McElwain had with Ivey, Jordan and Fred Johnson. It isn't an apples to apples comparison. Meyer inherited a better roster than McElwain as well and Meyer was certainly handed a better QB and oline situation.
If you go tos, sort the COMPOSITE top 50 recruits, ONLY out of the state of FL and look at the 2016 class; mind you this is only the top 50 players in FL.
Miami led with 10 commitments.
Fsu had 8.
UF had 4.
That leaves 26 players that went elsewhere.
Fsu's numbers are a little misleading since they pulled SO many very elite out of state kids. Florida pulled many kids out of state also, just not as elite. (Cleveland, Clayton, Thompson, Moon were the out of state blue chips)
It's mind boggling when you really think about that. That UF could only pull 4 out of the top 50 instate recruits. FOUR?!
This is why Mac publicly said they need to recruit better in state. But the Gator brand; being in Florida and being the only SEC school in FL, should recruit better on its own. Now it will get better for 2017, it has to. It is one of those things where it can't get any worse. What is Florida going to get less than 4 of the top 50 players in the state? No way.
So it just comes down to the championship level or not. Mac is a good coach, nobody is denying that. Is he a CHAMPIONSHIP level coach? It's damn hard to win it all. No matter which way you going about doing it. My opinion is no, he's not. That's not a slight on him, most are not. All either side of the coin can do is project. He obviously hasn't won anything as a HC, so whatever your take is on the matter; it's just an opinion. I feel the Gators got a good guy, a solid coach but not one that will win it all.
Miami led with 10 commitments.
Fsu had 8.
UF had 4.
That leaves 26 players that went elsewhere.
Fsu's numbers are a little misleading since they pulled SO many very elite out of state kids. Florida pulled many kids out of state also, just not as elite. (Cleveland, Clayton, Thompson, Moon were the out of state blue chips)
It's mind boggling when you really think about that. That UF could only pull 4 out of the top 50 instate recruits. FOUR?!
This is why Mac publicly said they need to recruit better in state. But the Gator brand; being in Florida and being the only SEC school in FL, should recruit better on its own. Now it will get better for 2017, it has to. It is one of those things where it can't get any worse. What is Florida going to get less than 4 of the top 50 players in the state? No way.
So it just comes down to the championship level or not. Mac is a good coach, nobody is denying that. Is he a CHAMPIONSHIP level coach? It's damn hard to win it all. No matter which way you going about doing it. My opinion is no, he's not. That's not a slight on him, most are not. All either side of the coin can do is project. He obviously hasn't won anything as a HC, so whatever your take is on the matter; it's just an opinion. I feel the Gators got a good guy, a solid coach but not one that will win it all.
And again, not a word about the MeatChicken embarassment or the light years difference in bump classes, but hey, we can just keep playing 'poor Mac' if you think its more fun.
If it makes you feel better I could state that Meyer was 16-2 against the big 3 and 5-1 in bowl games.
Mac certainly did a poor job trying to game plan to whatever strengths Harris might have provided, few as they were. That is certainly true in the bowl game.
I'd imagine Meyer would have scrapped his offense to fit what he had on hand...like he did for Leak? Probably wouldn't have said "oh well, this is my system, run it."
This whole argument about Meyer and Mac's first season is flawed.
Mac inherited Treon. Then Treon became the only QB on the roster after PED got sidelined. All the other QB's were 0 star walkons that came in to hold clip boards and signal in plays.
Meyer had a championship caliber QB in Leak,
Switch the QB's and give Meyer the agile Treon and give Mac the pocket QB Leak and see who does better.
Meyer is one of the all time greats and Mac is still green. However, I think if you give Mac a QB like Leak he wins a few of those games down the stretch. On the other hand, give Meyer a QB like Treon and I think he would be running for the Pepto Bismo. Even Meyer would have struggled to win games with Treon.
You have to take into account the fact that Muschamp signed a 5'10" cornerback that no other team would sign as a QB. Mac did a great job winning as many as he did with a diminutive CB who can't make good decisions behind center.
Mac inherited Treon. Then Treon became the only QB on the roster after PED got sidelined. All the other QB's were 0 star walkons that came in to hold clip boards and signal in plays.
Meyer had a championship caliber QB in Leak,
Switch the QB's and give Meyer the agile Treon and give Mac the pocket QB Leak and see who does better.
Meyer is one of the all time greats and Mac is still green. However, I think if you give Mac a QB like Leak he wins a few of those games down the stretch. On the other hand, give Meyer a QB like Treon and I think he would be running for the Pepto Bismo. Even Meyer would have struggled to win games with Treon.
You have to take into account the fact that Muschamp signed a 5'10" cornerback that no other team would sign as a QB. Mac did a great job winning as many as he did with a diminutive CB who can't make good decisions behind center.
Amazing, we've seen this "my offense, deal with it" out of two straight Saban-ites. I find that a bit interesting
I agree with this Paco - "You take a step back and compare the 2 seasons and it could be argued that McElwain did more with (way) less than Meyer in their first seasons at UF."
And Paco, I'll wait until they both have had 10 years as a HBC before attempting to compare the skills. Besides, there's a whole lot more to being a 'Great' HBC than just your W/L record. Anyone want to compare their team's off the field / in town, and/or classroom performances? (arrest records)
JMOHO, but Urban was a good football coach, but pretty questionable elsewhere.
Urban caught a pretty big break at Utah by having QB Alex Smith already on his roster.
Urban caught an even bigger break at UF already having QB Chris Leak on the roster, and life long Gator Tim Tebow coming to UF in 2006. Smith and Tebow were both eventually 1st round NFL draft picks.
McElwain had what was left of the musclecramp's broken offense and 2 QB's (both now having been suspended and departed), to try and win maybe 6-7 games. Instead he and Nuss put together a 10 win SECe-C team. (many calling it 'miraculous') -- So much so that most are saying that they might win 7-8 games if they are lucky in 2016, with virtually NO-SHOT at the SECe-C.
And 5-6 years from now, IF Mc wins the SEC and/or NC, then these haters will do one of two things.
The rival troll's memories will go blank as they disappear, or they will completely change their tunes (unlikely).
The Gator-hater, doom & gloomers will all claim that they knew it all along and always supported the Mc-Nuss teams...
And Paco, I'll wait until they both have had 10 years as a HBC before attempting to compare the skills. Besides, there's a whole lot more to being a 'Great' HBC than just your W/L record. Anyone want to compare their team's off the field / in town, and/or classroom performances? (arrest records)
JMOHO, but Urban was a good football coach, but pretty questionable elsewhere.
Urban caught a pretty big break at Utah by having QB Alex Smith already on his roster.
Urban caught an even bigger break at UF already having QB Chris Leak on the roster, and life long Gator Tim Tebow coming to UF in 2006. Smith and Tebow were both eventually 1st round NFL draft picks.
McElwain had what was left of the musclecramp's broken offense and 2 QB's (both now having been suspended and departed), to try and win maybe 6-7 games. Instead he and Nuss put together a 10 win SECe-C team.
(many calling it 'miraculous') -- So much so that most are saying that they might win 7-8 games if they are lucky in 2016, with virtually NO-SHOT at the SECe-C.And 5-6 years from now, IF Mc wins the SEC and/or NC, then these haters will do one of two things.
The rival troll's memories will go blank as they disappear, or they will completely change their tunes (unlikely).
The Gator-hater, doom & gloomers will all claim that they knew it all along and always supported the Mc-Nuss teams...
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I would agree. Mac certainly did not try and adjust to whatever small opportunities Harris might have brought to the table. However, had he done so, I do not think the record down the stretch would have been any better. But maybe we would not have looked like monkeys fornicating footballs either.
But I was referring to the accusation that the Mac offense was not getting better. As I showed in the other thread, the Mac offense with a credible QB was demonstrably better.
And let's not forget. It wasn't until the UGA game when we had an off week that Meyer reconstructed the offense to be less read option and more short passing. Leak was awful in the read option.
So, if the point is that Meyer is willing to do in season major adjustments to the offense and Mac is not, then yes, the results last year seem to suggest that compared to what Meyer did in 2005. But if the accusation is that Mac's offense wasn't getting better with a credible QB, then I do not agree with that.
LOL. Leak was a 5'10 QB who ran a 4.9 at his pro days. His arm isn't particularly strong either. Physically, Treon is superior to Leak. Leak was a great college QB but you guys act as if he was some superior physical specimen. Additionally, Leak was completely ill-fit for what Meyer wanted to do much the way Treonwas ill-fit for what Mac wanted to do. Guess what the difference is though? One coach scrapped everything he believed in so he could win. The other publicly stated "we're not changing what we do for one guy."
The relative performances of the offenses weren't my point. You said you wondered what would happen if Leak went down, I assume to make the argument that Mac got hurt by his QB going down. My belief is Meyer would have changed the offense for whoever was his QB because that's exactly what he did for Leak. The offense was crap up until that point and rather than continue as is he scrapped everything and in two weeks came back with an offense that his QB could run.
The old "he should have adjusted to to Treon" argument.
I'm assuming most people mean that we should have switched to a read option based offense, yes?
The young and weak o-line probably would have been a big issue right of the bat.
I'm not sure Treon had enough presence of mind to effectively run it (especially after his confidence was shot).
More importantly, he still had to complete passes. Even in the shot hun on 3 step timing routes he.couldnt hit receivers 5-10 yards in front him.
I'm assuming most people mean that we should have switched to a read option based offense, yes?
The young and weak o-line probably would have been a big issue right of the bat.
I'm not sure Treon had enough presence of mind to effectively run it (especially after his confidence was shot).
More importantly, he still had to complete passes. Even in the shot hun on 3 step timing routes he.couldnt hit receivers 5-10 yards in front him.
Chris Leak was a 5 star, the #2 rated pro style QB in the nation and the overall #13 in the nation coming out of high school. Leak finished his freshman year with an SEC record for a freshman, posting a 6–3 record as a starter, including a win over the eventual national champion LSU Tigers. Leak was named to the SEC All-Freshman Team and Rival's Freshman All-America Team. In his sophomore season he started all of Florida's games, including a memorable school record tying six touchdown performance against South Carolina. Leak was in his 3rd year when Meyer took over and had 2 years with Meyer to learn the offense. In 2006 Leak lead the Gators to the national championship.
Treon was not recruited as a QB by anyone. He was the 163rd ranked player in the country as a CB. He had one year in Mac's offense and had a penchant for making extremely poor decisions.
Yeah, you're right, they're basically the same player. Meyer probably would have coached Treon to a Heisman and a NC.
You're losing credibility Oozie.
Actually, you're losing credibility. Way to switch the argument. Did anyone come close to stating Treon was as good as Leak?
You stated Treon was a '5'10 CB' as a way to diminish his ability as a player. I simply pointed out to you that Leak was also 5'10 and a much worse athlete than Treon is. The rest of your argument is just a straw man because nobody was making the argument they were equals as players. As is the case around here though when your points get refuted, change the argument and keep on trucking. You can have it, I'm not really interested in that kind of back and forth.
Claiming that Meyer scrapped everything he believed in so he could win is an exaggeration.
In 2005 Chris Leak threw the ball 374 times and ran the ball 105 times. Leak had the second most carries on the team.
In 2006 Chris Leak threw the ball 365 times and ran the ball 77 times. Chris Leak had the third most carries on the team. However, the second string QB (Tebow) had the second most carries on the team with 89. The combined QB position carried the ball 166 times.
You say after the Georgia game he changed the offense. He did tweak it, but he didn't scrap the spread. The week after Georgia Leak was the team's leading rusher with 12 carries for 67 yards. In fact, Leak had 43 of his 105 carries in the last five games of 2005.
Meyer did tweak the offense, but he did not "scrap everything he believed in".
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The point of your post was that Mac is a subpar coach because he did not adapt to Treon as a QB and you gave Meyer and Leak as an example. My post simply pointed out the glaring differences between the two QB's.
That is not changing the argument.
However, I have learned never to try to engage in intelligent conversation with those who throw around the term "straw man".
Yes he kind of did, you just don't understand what you're watching. Focusing only on the rushes the QB attempts shows that.
Meyer's Rush offense was centered around his wing backs (the role Harvin later played), not the QB. He scrapped that completely as well as the triple option element. The zone read went away too. Leak just had designed gives and then his designed runs to keep the defense honest. We ran behind a fullback and TE and a large majority of Leak's runs were designed draws out of pass-first formations, nothing like what Meyer has ever done out of the spread with his QB. And we scrapped all 'pop-reads' and instead went to a traditional, play-action passing game that was basically west coast in nature. You can easily notice this difference between what we did with Tebow and what we did with Leak. But hey, Leak still ran it a few times therefore big changes weren't made. Ok.
Meyer's Rush offense was centered around his wing backs (the role Harvin later played), not the QB. He scrapped that completely as well as the triple option element. The zone read went away too. Leak just had designed gives and then his designed runs to keep the defense honest. We ran behind a fullback and TE and a large majority of Leak's runs were designed draws out of pass-first formations, nothing like what Meyer has ever done out of the spread with his QB. And we scrapped all 'pop-reads' and instead went to a traditional, play-action passing game that was basically west coast in nature. You can easily notice this difference between what we did with Tebow and what we did with Leak. But hey, Leak still ran it a few times therefore big changes weren't made. Ok.
This goes back to the straw man comment. It's just that everyone else is blind and only you know. Hard to discuss things with people that believe that way. I'm just a poor lost sheeple that doesn't understand what I see with my own two eyes.
No your reading comprehension is poor. I've already called Mac a good gameday coach on this page along multiple times., so please tell me where you conclude that I'm calling Mac subpar? My point was simple...both coaches had QB's who didn't fit what they wanted to do, one adapted, the other didn't. You then decided to make the argument that Treon was short and unskilled basically, so I then pointed out to you that Leak was also short and less athletic in addition to being ill-fit for Meyer's offense much like Treon was ill-fit for Mac's offense.
You then decide to go list Leak's HS accomplishments as a counter. But you're not changing the argument. Brilliant.
By definition that would make one subpar.
You should get help for your anger management issues. It's not necessary to insult everyone that disagrees with you. Think how boring these boards would be if everyone agreed.
I'm not trying to diminish your point. Plenty of people know more than me too. You can either play woe is me or keep debating.
You're arguing that the adjustments Meyer made were exaggerated, I show you all the ways it changed, you counter with 'this is what I saw with my own two eyes.' So your own two eyes trumps what is actually happening on the field, why? Ok, so tell us why your own two eyes is so much more credible and why those things I just mentioned didn't happen.
I claimed that you were exaggerating when you said that "Meyer scrapped everything he believed in". Come on Oozie. Really? You can't admit that is hyperbole?
He didn't go from a spread to a wishbone. He didn't completely rewrite the playbook and retrain the entire offense in 7 days. We both know that didn't happen.
He tweaked the offense. He kept the base offense and made a few changes. That is not "scrapping everything he believed in".
LOL Jesus. What anger did I display in that post? And without 'insulting' you, I'll just say that's extremely poor logic. I stated multiple times a coach is good, but because I disagree with a decision of his that automatically means I think he's subpar? What??? They both made decisions for a certain reason only they know, I happen to agree with one decision more than the other. Nothing more or less.
But your argument is basically that since he retained the spread, he didn't scrap what he believed it. I'm seriously not trying to condescend you but this goes back to only having a base understanding of what's happening. There are literally hundreds of variations of the spread. Meyer's base version of the spread ironically enough is based on wishbone type elements. He scrapped that and basically ran a spread similar to what Stoops ran with Bradford at OU while keeping a few designed draws for Leak. That's not remotely close to his core offense.
So yes, he did scrap everything he believed in. Meyer himself has said on many occasions he's a run-first option guy. We removed that from the playbook entirely, which is the core of his offense. Mullen has talked about how they installed things like option routes for receivers and put in new passing concepts which they had never done before, all so they could take advantage of what Leak could do passing. Meyer never used a fullback or TE before that season, we did from UGA on. How are those not major changes that deviate from what he had previously believed in?
Not really the read-option, though I think that would have helped the o-line more than Treon. As the saying goes if you can't block em, option em. You'd at least make defenders hesitate to make a read as opposed to pinning their ears back and meeting at the QB. I feel we should have attacked the edges more and even sped up tempo.
And that was probably my biggest criticism. I didn't see us do things like run any screens, run misdirection, keep extra guys in to block, etc. to take pressure off the o-line. I think the first time we moved the pocket and then then threw back the opposite direction was that OT play against FAU and it worked beautifully. We probably would have lost those games anyway but at least we wouldn't have been so inept looking. I honestly feel the OL's confidence by the end of the year was just as bad as Treon's because of the situations they got put in, which is the indefensible part for me given their youth. Treon is secondary for me. I was saying this exact same thing at the beginning of the season.
Leak was one of the best starting QBs that UF has ever had and won a national title while at UF. Treon Harris is one of the worst UF starting QBs I've ever seen. Big big difference between these guys as QBs.
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