1776: A Lockean Revolution

[DCandtheUTBand]

"...It is a good bet he ( Lord Camden before Parliament) made use of Locke’s ability to employ a grammar of natural rights grounded in biblical revelation. Unlike Thomas Hobbes, for example, Locke’s “state of nature” was framed by a moral order whose origin was the Divine will...


'The state of Nature has a law of Nature to govern it, which obliges everyone, and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions; for men being all the workmanship of one omnipotent and infinitely wise Maker; all the servants of one sovereign Master, sent into the world by His order and about His business; they are His property…'

But American readers in the 18th century would have recognized lines from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, describing men and women as the handiwork of God: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Locke based his entire approach to politics on an anthropology — a view of human nature — that drew its authority from the Bible, a book that most colonial Americans revered...

The American revolutionaries found in this English theorist a political-theological ally. Governments preserve their legitimacy only by fulfilling the purpose for which they were instituted: the protection of our God-given rights and freedoms...

Those principles — for which Locke became a fugitive and risked his life — included government by consent, the separation of powers, equal justice, and religious freedom. This English philosopher thus had a hand in two of the greatest political revolutions for human freedom in world history. That’s a legacy worth recalling this July 4."

1776: A Lockean Revolution | National Review

This English philosopher had a hand in two of the greatest political revolutions for human freedom in world history. That’s a legacy worth recalling this July 4.

www.nationalreview.com

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

 

[GhostOfMatchesMalone]

A Christian nation founded on Christian principles. That the left is trying to distance itself from in every way imaginable.

 

[EvilWayz]

Y'all going to make me drag all them quotations out again, aren't you.

 

[GhostOfMatchesMalone]

Creator. Declaration of Independence. 1776.

 

[EvilWayz]

Creator. Declaration of Independence. 1776.

You'll notice they didn't say God or Jesus in any of the founding documents. That was intentional.

You can keep repeating this til you're blue in the face, don't make it true.

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
President John Adams, who was a devout Christian.

 

[Dr. Curmudgeon]

"...It is a good bet he ( Lord Camden before Parliament) made use of Locke’s ability to employ a grammar of natural rights grounded in biblical revelation. Unlike Thomas Hobbes, for example, Locke’s “state of nature” was framed by a moral order whose origin was the Divine will...


'The state of Nature has a law of Nature to govern it, which obliges everyone, and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions; for men being all the workmanship of one omnipotent and infinitely wise Maker; all the servants of one sovereign Master, sent into the world by His order and about His business; they are His property…'

But American readers in the 18th century would have recognized lines from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, describing men and women as the handiwork of God: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Locke based his entire approach to politics on an anthropology — a view of human nature — that drew its authority from the Bible, a book that most colonial Americans revered...

The American revolutionaries found in this English theorist a political-theological ally. Governments preserve their legitimacy only by fulfilling the purpose for which they were instituted: the protection of our God-given rights and freedoms...

Those principles — for which Locke became a fugitive and risked his life — included government by consent, the separation of powers, equal justice, and religious freedom. This English philosopher thus had a hand in two of the greatest political revolutions for human freedom in world history. That’s a legacy worth recalling this July 4."

1776: A Lockean Revolution | National Review

This English philosopher had a hand in two of the greatest political revolutions for human freedom in world history. That’s a legacy worth recalling this July 4.

www.nationalreview.com

John Locke was the inspiration to the US Constitution, no question. His manifesto to the Imperialistic Regimes of Great Britain is perfectly articulated.

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams also.

John Adams was an Unitarian

"As no truth is more clearly taught in the Volume of Inspiration, not any more fully demonstrated by the experience of all ages, than that a deep sense and a due acknowledgment of the growing providence of a Supreme Being and of the accountableness of men to Him as the searcher of hearts and righteous distributor of rewards and punishments are conducive equally to the happiness of individuals and to the well-being of communities....I have thought proper to recommend, and I hereby recommend accordingly, that Thursday, the twenty-fifth of April next, be observed throughout the United States of America as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens on that day abstain, as far as may be, from their secular occupation, and devote the time to the sacred duties of religion, in public and in private; that they call to mind our numerous offenses against the most high God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore His pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, (Jesus) for our past transgressions, and that through His Holy Spirit, we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience to His righteous requisitions in time to come; that He would interpose to arrest the progress of that impiety and licentiousness in principle and practice so offensive to Himself and so ruinous to mankind; that He would make us deeply sensible that "righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people" [Proverbs 14:34].
President John Adams, proclaiming a "National Fast Day,"

“Providence has given our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” -

John Jay was a co-author of the Federalist Papers, a Governor of New York, and the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.


Ben Franklin often mislabeled a Deist. He was a nominal Christian in that he believed in the teachings of Christ but was unsure of His divinity :

"You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavor in a few words to gratify it.

Here is my creed.

• I believe in one God, the creator of the universe.
• That he governs by his providence. (Deist do not believe in providence)
• That he ought to be worshipped.
• That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children.
• That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this.

These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire,

• I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes,
• and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity;
• though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.
• I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequences, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed;
• especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."

Now to the Crux of the issue. With Adams being an Unitarian and Franklin unsure of the divinity of Christ they would use a neutral word like Creator instead of Christ. But the average Protestant and Catholic would see them as one and the same. ALL of them (Protestants, Catholics, nominal Christians (Jefferson and Franklin) would agree that the Creator is the Creator of the Old Testament. Our rights come from Him , liberty should not be used as an excuse for licentiousness and we would have no rights to things that abuse His moral order since those rights are granted by Him.

 

[GhostOfMatchesMalone]

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams also.

John Adams was an Unitarian

"As no truth is more clearly taught in the Volume of Inspiration, not any more fully demonstrated by the experience of all ages, than that a deep sense and a due acknowledgment of the growing providence of a Supreme Being and of the accountableness of men to Him as the searcher of hearts and righteous distributor of rewards and punishments are conducive equally to the happiness of individuals and to the well-being of communities....I have thought proper to recommend, and I hereby recommend accordingly, that Thursday, the twenty-fifth of April next, be observed throughout the United States of America as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens on that day abstain, as far as may be, from their secular occupation, and devote the time to the sacred duties of religion, in public and in private; that they call to mind our numerous offenses against the most high God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore His pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, (Jesus) for our past transgressions, and that through His Holy Spirit, we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience to His righteous requisitions in time to come; that He would interpose to arrest the progress of that impiety and licentiousness in principle and practice so offensive to Himself and so ruinous to mankind; that He would make us deeply sensible that "righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people" [Proverbs 14:34].
President John Adams, proclaiming a "National Fast Day,"

“Providence has given our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” -

John Jay was a co-author of the Federalist Papers, a Governor of New York, and the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.


Ben Franklin often mislabeled a Deist. He was a nominal Christian in that he believed in the teachings of Christ but was unsure of His divinity :

"You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavor in a few words to gratify it.

Here is my creed.

• I believe in one God, the creator of the universe.
• That he governs by his providence. (Deist do not believe in providence)
• That he ought to be worshipped.
• That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children.
• That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this.

These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire,

• I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes,
• and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity;
• though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.
• I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequences, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed;
• especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."

Now to the Crux of the issue. With Adams being an Unitarian and Franklin unsure of the divinity of Christ they would use a neutral word like Creator instead of Christ. But the average Protestant and Catholic would see them as one and the same. ALL of them (Protestants, Catholics, nominal Christians (Jefferson and Franklin) would agree that the Creator is the Creator of the Old Testament. Our rights come from Him , liberty should not be used as an excuse for licentiousness and we would have no rights to things that abuse His moral order since those rights are granted by Him.

As a descendant of multiple Founding Fathers, I concur.

 

[EvilWayz]

Now to the Crux of the issue. With Adams being an Unitarian and Franklin unsure of the divinity of Christ they would use a neutral word like Creator instead of Christ. But the average Protestant and Catholic would see them as one and the same. ALL of them (Protestants, Catholics, nominal Christians (Jefferson and Franklin) would agree that the Creator is the Creator of the Old Testament. Our rights come from Him , liberty should not be used as an excuse for licentiousness and we would have no rights to things that abuse His moral order since those rights are granted by Him.

And yet there is no mention of the Christian God or Jesus in any of the founding documents. Only a creator.

Vishnu is a Creator, from the Hindu pantheon, who I might point out predates Christianity by about 3500 years.

And again, John Adams declared in the treaty of Tripoli that the United States is not a Christian nation.

So you can dredge up all the articles you want, this still isn't a Christian nation.

 

[Dr. Curmudgeon]

And yet there is no mention of the Christian God or Jesus in any of the founding documents. Only a creator.

Vishnu is a Creator, from the Hindu pantheon, who I might point out predates Christianity by about 3500 years.

And again, John Adams declared in the treaty of Tripoli that the United States is not a Christian nation.

So you can dredge up all the articles you want, this still isn't a Christian nation.

Thomas Jefferson journaled the importance of Jesus Christ, so.

 

[EvilWayz]

Thomas Jefferson journaled the importance of Jesus Christ, so.

So? Some of the founding fathers were devout Christians. They went out of their way, intentionally, to make no mention of their faith in the construction of the U.S. government. That was a response to their dealings with the Church of England. They wanted to make sure that there would be no national religion. Seems odd for a Christian nation, no?

 

[GhostOfMatchesMalone]

Thomas Jefferson journaled the importance of Jesus Christ, so.

Our Founding Fathers really were amazing. This country really is a miracle. But we must guard it against perversion and immorality every day, every second.

 

[Dr. Curmudgeon]

So? Some of the founding fathers were devout Christians. They went out of their way, intentionally, to make no mention of their faith in the construction of the U.S. government. That was a response to their dealings with the Church of England. They wanted to make sure that there would be no national religion. Seems odd for a Christian nation, no?

Actually, the separation of Church and State isn't what you might think it means. It was brought forth by Catholic hating factions that were afraid of the Pope ruling the world, not that the teachings of Christ should be separate from Gov't.

 

[EvilWayz]

Actually, the separation of Church and State isn't what you might think it means. It was brought forth by Catholic hating factions that were afraid of the Pope ruling the world, not that the teachings of Christ should be separate from Gov't.

And yet:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Nothing in there says you can worship any flavor of Christianity you want. That means everybody can worship who they please, or no one.

The founding fathers were smart people, and they wrote things up in an unambiguous fashion.

 

[fsumc]

And yet:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Nothing in there says you can worship any flavor of Christianity you want. That means everybody can worship who they please, or no one.

The founding fathers were smart people, and they wrote things up in an unambiguous fashion.

I don’t think Christians or Libertarians would disagree with this. The Founders absolutely did not want a state religion like England or Catholicism had. They did everything they could to prevent that.

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

And yet there is no mention of the Christian God or Jesus in any of the founding documents. Only a creator.

Vishnu is a Creator, from the Hindu pantheon, who I might point out predates Christianity by about 3500 years.

And again, John Adams declared in the treaty of Tripoli that the United States is not a Christian nation.

So you can dredge up all the articles you want, this still isn't a Christian nation.

The post was about the concept of rights and Locke's view on them. The Declaration came from Locke's ideas. The post also did not mention Christ even though the New Testament is alluded to and quoted in the excerpt from Locke.

Adams was being deceitful, playing with words and dealing with an enemy.

Abraham declared truthfully that Sarah was his sister when the king wanted to know if she was his wife.

But you miss the point.

The Creator in the document was the Christian/Hebrew God whether explicitly mentioned or not because that was their frame of reference. The frame of reference for every single one of them except maybe Paine. Now they were also followers of Locke who said rights came from God. Which God? What rights? Locke was Christian. So if one is to know what a right is or is not one must have a frame of reference to make such determinations.

Logically a God would not grant as a right something that He has forbidden.

My contention is that going to original intent one would look to the morals and ethics of the day to determine what the founders would have considered rights.

Also I have shown that they did not consider liberty to be an excuse to engage in licentious behavior.

So really this isn't about this being a "Christian nation" but how one determines what is a right and what is not a right according to the intent of the founders. If modern mores conflicts with this then the remedy is a constitutional amendment. It is not 9 people in robes changing the definitions to fit their desire or a plurality of society.

In order to make such changes the founders wanted it to be a super majority of the people not 50% +1 or a 5-4 squeaker in SCOTUS.

 

[GhostOfMatchesMalone]

The post was about the concept of rights and Locke's view on them. The Declaration came from Locke's ideas. The post also did not mention Christ even though the New Testament is alluded to and quoted in the excerpt from Locke.

Adams was being deceitful, playing with words and dealing with an enemy.

Abraham declared truthfully that Sarah was his sister when the king wanted to know if she was his wife.

But you miss the point.

The Creator in the document was the Christian/Hebrew God whether explicitly mentioned or not because that was their frame of reference. The frame of reference for every single one of them except maybe Paine. Now they were also followers of Locke who said rights came from God. Which God? What rights? Locke was Christian. So if one is to know what a right is or is not one must have a frame of reference to make such determinations.

Logically a God would not grant as a right something that He has forbidden.

My contention is that going to original intent one would look to the morals and ethics of the day to determine what the founders would have considered rights.

Also I have shown that they did not consider liberty to be an excuse to engage in licentious behavior.

So really this isn't about this being a "Christian nation" but how one determines what is a right and what is not a right according to the intent of the founders. If modern mores conflicts with this then the remedy is a constitutional amendment. It is not 9 people in robes changing the definitions to fit their desire or a plurality of society.

In order to make such changes the founders wanted it to be a super majority of the people not 50% +1 or a 5-4 squeaker in SCOTUS.

I put him on Ignore months ago, but I suspect yall are arguing points about Christianity and the origins of this nation that he has a vested interest in not hearing.

 

[EvilWayz]

The framers were very concise in their writings be it the Declaration, the Federalist papers, or the Constitution. If they had meant the God of Abraham, they would have said so.

Most of the founding fathers were not Christian. That has been well established. And most of them were heavily influenced by Thomas Paine. George Washington in particular. When he became president, one of the first thing he did was write 22 letters to the leaders of various faiths, plus atheists, allaying their fears about free exercise of religion in the new country.

The words natural rights are used instead of God given.

I'm not going to dig up the bazillion quotes I already wrote up in your other thread on this subject. I will say the laws of the US have more to do with Hammurabi than the ten commandments.

 

[EvilWayz]

I put him on Ignore months ago, but I suspect yall are arguing points about Christianity and the origins of this nation that he has a vested interest in not hearing.

You don't answer me because you don't like being schooled by a Satanist.

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

Most Founders were Anglican/Episcopalian or Congregationalists and that is documented. Washington attended church up until his death.

Paine was despised by Adams and many others.

Paine was NOT influential among the founders but tolerated because he was useful for the cause due to his popular writings.

"By the time Paine died, in 1809, all the surviving Founders had renounced him. (Jefferson even refused to allow his correspondence with Paine to be printed...) And almost no one showed up to see him buried. 'There were twenty thousand mourners at Franklin’s funeral. Tom Paine’s had six.'”- New Yorker magazine 10/16/2006

Locke as shown was the influence and he defined "natural rights" in the quote in this very thread.

'The state of Nature has a law of Nature to govern it, which obliges everyone, and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions; for men being all the workmanship of one omnipotent and infinitely wise Maker; all the servants of one sovereign Master, sent into the world by His order and about His business; they are His property…'

The Declaration says that our rights come from our Creator

You have 4 not "most" who are most often cited as not Christian. And yet 3 of them proposed Christian teaching as the best form of religion.

Jefferson sent Bibles to the Indians using tax dollars. Jefferson also attended church in the Capitol building.

From Chief Justice Renhquist:

"As the United States moved from the 18th into the 19th century, Congress appropriated time and again public moneys in support of sectarian Indian education carried on by religious organizations. Typical of these was Jefferson's treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians, which provided annual cash support for the Tribe's Roman Catholic priest and church. The treaty stated in part:

"And whereas, the greater part of said Tribe have been baptized and received into the Catholic church, to which they are much attached, the United States will give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest of that religion . . . [a]nd . . . three hundred dollars, to assist the said Tribe in the erection of a church." 7 Stat. 79.'

From 1789 to 1823 the United States Congress had provided a trust endowment of up to 12,000 acres of land "for the Society of the United Brethren, for propagating the Gospel among the Heathen." See, e. g., ch. 46, 1 Stat. 490. The Act creating this endowment was renewed periodically and the renewals were signed into law by Washington, Adams, and Jefferson.

Congressional grants for the aid of religion were not limited to Indians. In 1787 Congress provided land to the Ohio Company, including acreage for the support of religion. This grant was reauthorized in 1792. See 1 Stat. 257. In 1833 Congress authorized the State of Ohio to sell the land [472 U.S. 38, 104] set aside for religion and use the proceeds "for the support of religion . . . and for no other use or purpose whatsoever. . . ."
4 Stat. 618-619.

It was not until 1897, when aid to sectarian education for Indians had reached $500,000 annually, that Congress decided thereafter to cease appropriating money for education in sectarian schools. See Act of June 7, 1897, 30 Stat. 62, 79; cf. Quick Bear v. Leupp, 210 U.S. 50, 77-79 (1908); J. O'Neill, Religion and Education Under the Constitution 118-119 (1949). See generally R. Cord, Separation of Church and State 61-82 (1982). This history shows the fallacy of the notion found in Everson that "no tax in any amount" may be levied for religious activities in any form. 330 U.S., at 15-16." -Rehnquist
......continued

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

.... continued...
"There is a natural and necessary progression, from the extreme of anarchy to the extreme of tyranny; and arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness."-George Washington

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. . . . Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." - President George Washington in speech to Delaware Indians

"...Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station; it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official Act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the Universe, who presides in the Councils of Nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that his benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the People of the United States, a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes: and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success, the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor those of my fellow–citizens at large, less than either. No People can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand, which conducts the Affairs of men more than the People of the United States. Every step, by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency. And in the important revolution just accomplished in the system of their United Government, the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities, from which the event has resulted, cannot be compared with the means by which most Governments have been established, without some return of pious gratitude along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage...

Since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven, can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained: And since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty, and the destiny of the Republican model of Government, are justly considered as deeply, perhaps as finally staked, on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people...."President George Washington first inaugural

"What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ"-George Washington

"O most glorious God ... Direct my thoughts, words and work, wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb, and purge my heart by thy Holy Spirit.... Daily frame me more and more into the likeness of thy Son Jesus Christ.... Thou gavest thy Son to die for me, and hast given me assurance of salvation."- Prayer by George Washington

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man will endeavor to live and act as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country."-George Washington

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."-George Washington

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor."-George Washington


Founders and their religious denomination:

Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian

Funny no Satanists listed and only two wrongly labeled Deists.

 

[EvilWayz]

.... continued...
"There is a natural and necessary progression, from the extreme of anarchy to the extreme of tyranny; and arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness."-George Washington

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. . . . Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." - President George Washington in speech to Delaware Indians

"...Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station; it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official Act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the Universe, who presides in the Councils of Nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that his benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the People of the United States, a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes: and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success, the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor those of my fellow–citizens at large, less than either. No People can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand, which conducts the Affairs of men more than the People of the United States. Every step, by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency. And in the important revolution just accomplished in the system of their United Government, the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities, from which the event has resulted, cannot be compared with the means by which most Governments have been established, without some return of pious gratitude along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage...

Since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven, can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained: And since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty, and the destiny of the Republican model of Government, are justly considered as deeply, perhaps as finally staked, on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people...."President George Washington first inaugural

"What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ"-George Washington

"O most glorious God ... Direct my thoughts, words and work, wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb, and purge my heart by thy Holy Spirit.... Daily frame me more and more into the likeness of thy Son Jesus Christ.... Thou gavest thy Son to die for me, and hast given me assurance of salvation."- Prayer by George Washington

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man will endeavor to live and act as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country."-George Washington

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."-George Washington

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor."-George Washington


Founders and their religious denomination:

Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian

Funny no Satanists listed and only two wrongly labeled Deists.

At the time of the writing of the constitution, Paine and his pamphlet "Common Sense" were very much the majority influence.

You're still wrong. There is no mention of Christianity or a Christian nation in any founding documents. Personal journals don't count. The founding fathers were careful to keep their person beliefs out of government.

I'd like a citation for that list. And how you decided the two deists on it were mislabeled.

From the book "Faiths of the Founding Fathers" by historian David L. Holmes: the largest group consisted of founders who retained Christian loyalties and practice but were influenced by Deism. They believed in little or none of the miracles and supernaturalism inherent in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Holmes finds a spectrum of such Deistic Christians among the founders, ranging from John Adams and George Washington on the conservative right to Benjamin Franklin and James Monroe on the skeptical left.

And there weren't any Satanists on that list because there weren't any Satanists til 1966.

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

Paine's pamphlet was influential with the public at large in promoting the idea of independence. The founders were educated men, unlike Paine, and were influenced by Locke. Paine arrived on the scene late in 1774 ish and was sick. He had little time to influence the founders philosophies. Adams complained that Paine's pamphlets was nothing more than what he had been saying for years. Because Paine put to the pen a popular pamphlet that supported their cause they took him under wing and used him to rally the public.

Deist do not believe in Divine intervention. Most of these men mention Providence which is Divine intervention. If Providence is an "invisible hand" that aids a nation then that is also supernatural.

So the founders were influenced by Deism. That does not make "most" of them deist or non-Christian. I listed their known denominations. Your guy lists it as a spectrum and calls them Deistic Christians. Your own reference proves they were some flavor of Christian.

Creation and Resurrection are two huge miracles.

I gave you examples were modern belief in the separation of church and state are dispelled and showed how Christian churches and missionaries were supported by Congress and 3 of the presidents we have been discussing.

Now back to the points and to not get sidetracked!

1.) Locke influenced the Declaration not Paine.

2.) The Creator that Jefferson, Adams, Franklin and Washington believed in was the Judeo-Christian Creator. This is clear in the actions I previously cited or from their own words. There is literally no other frame of reference to draw upon. 99% of the religious population was some flavor of Christian. What other "Creator" could be referenced? This is like trying to redefine water.

Adams (Unitarian with Jesus divine but subordinate to the Father and not part of a "Trinity") , Jefferson and Franklin (skeptical of Jesus Divinity) would have ascribed to the "Father" the role of Creator.

Washington and most others may have ascribed creation to the Son as part of the Trinity as revealed in the Book of John. This is traditional Christian teaching found in all the denominations except the Unitarian Church and they had more than one angle on this.

3.) Since the Creator is the Judeo-Christian Creator our rights come from Him. No one has a right to do something that has been forbidden by Him. Where do we get the "rules?" The Bible. Nothing in this statement has anything to do with whether they held some Deistic beliefs or eschewed miracles. That has nothing to do with the rights endowed by the Creator or how to determine what is a right and what is not.

4.) I have not argued that we are a theocracy. What I have shown is that the definition of liberty is limited and excludes licentiousness. I have shown that licentious behavior as the founders would have defined it is in the Bible. I have quoted state constitutions during the time and George Washington to emphasize this case. None of this has one wit to do with miracles, Deism, or what part of the spectrum of Christianity that founders fell upon.

In short if our rights come from the Creator how do we determine what those rights are? Does it spring forth from a vacuum, is it from the modern licentious desires of a majority of men (Rousseau) , or is it found in the centuries old accepted teachings of morality of the Judeo-Christian ethos (Burke and Locke)?

 

[GhostOfMatchesMalone]

Paine's pamphlet was influential with the public at large in promoting the idea of independence. The founders were educated men, unlike Paine, and were influenced by Locke. Paine arrived on the scene late in 1774 ish and was sick. He had little time to influence the founders philosophies. Adams complained that Paine's pamphlets was nothing more than what he had been saying for years. Because Paine put to the pen a popular pamphlet that supported their cause they took him under wing and used him to rally the public.

Deist do not believe in Divine intervention. Most of these men mention Providence which is Divine intervention. If Providence is an "invisible hand" that aids a nation then that is also supernatural.

So the founders were influenced by Deism. That does not make "most" of them deist or non-Christian. I listed their known denominations. Your guy lists it as a spectrum and calls them Deistic Christians. Your own reference proves they were some flavor of Christian.

Creation and Resurrection are two huge miracles.

I gave you examples were modern belief in the separation of church and state are dispelled and showed how Christian churches and missionaries were supported by Congress and 3 of the presidents we have been discussing.

Now back to the points and to not get sidetracked!

1.) Locke influenced the Declaration not Paine.

2.) The Creator that Jefferson, Adams, Franklin and Washington believed in was the Judeo-Christian Creator. This is clear in the actions I previously cited or from their own words. There is literally no other frame of reference to draw upon. 99% of the religious population was some flavor of Christian. What other "Creator" could be referenced? This is like trying to redefine water.

Adams (Unitarian with Jesus divine but subordinate to the Father and not part of a "Trinity") , Jefferson and Franklin (skeptical of Jesus Divinity) would have ascribed to the "Father" the role of Creator.

Washington and most others may have ascribed creation to the Son as part of the Trinity as revealed in the Book of John. This is traditional Christian teaching found in all the denominations except the Unitarian Church and they had more than one angle on this.

3.) Since the Creator is the Judeo-Christian Creator our rights come from Him. No one has a right to do something that has been forbidden by Him. Where do we get the "rules?" The Bible. Nothing in this statement has anything to do with whether they held some Deistic beliefs or eschewed miracles. That has nothing to do with the rights endowed by the Creator or how to determine what is a right and what is not.

4.) I have not argued that we are a theocracy. What I have shown is that the definition of liberty is limited and excludes licentiousness. I have shown that licentious behavior as the founders would have defined it is in the Bible. I have quoted state constitutions during the time and George Washington to emphasize this case. None of this has one wit to do with miracles, Deism, or what part of the spectrum of Christianity that founders fell upon.

In short if our rights come from the Creator how do we determine what those rights are? Does it spring forth from a vacuum, is it from the modern licentious desires of a majority of men (Rousseau) , or is it found in the centuries old accepted teachings of morality of the Judeo-Christian ethos (Burke and Locke)?

Abundantly clear. Yet some cannot see, there is a reason why it is called The Great Deceiver.

 

[EvilWayz]

Paine's pamphlet was influential with the public at large in promoting the idea of independence. The founders were educated men, unlike Paine, and were influenced by Locke. Paine arrived on the scene late in 1774 ish and was sick. He had little time to influence the founders philosophies. Adams complained that Paine's pamphlets was nothing more than what he had been saying for years. Because Paine put to the pen a popular pamphlet that supported their cause they took him under wing and used him to rally the public.

Deist do not believe in Divine intervention. Most of these men mention Providence which is Divine intervention. If Providence is an "invisible hand" that aids a nation then that is also supernatural.

So the founders were influenced by Deism. That does not make "most" of them deist or non-Christian. I listed their known denominations. Your guy lists it as a spectrum and calls them Deistic Christians. Your own reference proves they were some flavor of Christian.

Creation and Resurrection are two huge miracles.

I gave you examples were modern belief in the separation of church and state are dispelled and showed how Christian churches and missionaries were supported by Congress and 3 of the presidents we have been discussing.

Now back to the points and to not get sidetracked!

1.) Locke influenced the Declaration not Paine.

That is strictly your opinion.

2.) The Creator that Jefferson, Adams, Franklin and Washington believed in was the Judeo-Christian Creator. This is clear in the actions I previously cited or from their own words. There is literally no other frame of reference to draw upon. 99% of the religious population was some flavor of Christian. What other "Creator" could be referenced? This is like trying to redefine water.

My point was more than one creator existed. The founding fathers were very good about righting specifically and unambiguously. That's why the bill of rights still makes sense today, because it was written clearly and unambiguously. If they had meant the CHristian God, they would have stated so unequivocally.

Adams (Unitarian with Jesus divine but subordinate to the Father and not part of a "Trinity") , Jefferson and Franklin (skeptical of Jesus Divinity) would have ascribed to the "Father" the role of Creator.

Washington and most others may have ascribed creation to the Son as part of the Trinity as revealed in the Book of John. This is traditional Christian teaching found in all the denominations except the Unitarian Church and they had more than one angle on this.

Again, they kept their personal faith out of hte construction of government, intentionally.

3.) Since the Creator is the Judeo-Christian Creator our rights come from Him. No one has a right to do something that has been forbidden by Him. Where do we get the "rules?" The Bible. Nothing in this statement has anything to do with whether they held some Deistic beliefs or eschewed miracles. That has nothing to do with the rights endowed by the Creator or how to determine what is a right and what is not.

If we were a theocracy this might be true. We aren't. I was born with certain rights and your God has nothing to do with them. Your Bible also has nothing to do with me. If the Bible is where the rules come from, how come only 4 out of the 10 commandments are found in law? Why isn't worshiping a God besides the Christian God illegal? It plainly states I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no Gods before me. Why isn't it illegal to say *** damnit! How come we can work on Sundays?

4.) I have not argued that we are a theocracy. What I have shown is that the definition of liberty is limited and excludes licentiousness. I have shown that licentious behavior as the founders would have defined it is in the Bible. I have quoted state constitutions during the time and George Washington to emphasize this case. None of this has one wit to do with miracles, Deism, or what part of the spectrum of Christianity that founders fell upon.

That is strictly your opinion. if it's not against the law, I can feel free to do it, regardless of what the Bible has to say about it.

In short if our rights come from the Creator how do we determine what those rights are? Does it spring forth from a vacuum, is it from the modern licentious desires of a majority of men (Rousseau) , or is it found in the centuries old accepted teachings of morality of the Judeo-Christian ethos (Burke and Locke)?

Hinduism predates Christianity by 3500 years. How come we aren't following its teachings?

I'm done with this discussion, all we are doing at this point is swapping internet articles. No one ever changed their mind about something because of what someone on the internet said. I thank you for keeping the discussion civil, and wish you a good day.

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

I thank you for keeping the discussion civil, and wish you a good day.

Dittos

 

[nothergator]

Actually, the separation of Church and State isn't what you might think it means. It was brought forth by Catholic hating factions that were afraid of the Pope ruling the world, not that the teachings of Christ should be separate from Gov't.

JMO ... Our founding fathers wanted and included religious principles and/or ideas in our government but were against politics controlling and/ or corrupting the church. They were wise.