An interesting TikTok from J. Greenblatt and then editorial on the WSJ (Ira Stoll)

[Illegal-shift]

Bragg has a lot of people testifying. He never called Cohen his star witness. You never provided receipts of that. A media outlet saying it, is not Bragg.

Pecker is just as important because he can help corroborate somethings that Cohen will say. Since Cohen is an adjudicated liar, they will need more then just his word. That's why I think Pecker is just as important. If the jury believes Pecker, that makes Cohen more believable.

If they have Weisselbergs notes the document evidence alone proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump did what they say he did.

But this is not ultimately about if he did it or not (which, as you know, never matters to the Trump people anyway)......it is ultimately about whether you can justify the charge as a felony rather than a misdemeanor and if you can get 12 people to agree that you SHOULD convict a former American president and one who may be again soon, of this kind of charge. Is this something strong enough/bad enough/illegal enough to potentially bring down a guy who current leads in the polls.

My opinion is they have virtually no shot at convincing 12 people to convict under these circumstances, and it will end in a hung jury. But that's just my guess. The jury is mostly educated people, so that works against Trump.

 

[kalimgoodman]

If they have Weisselbergs notes the document evidence alone proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump did what they say he did.

But this is not ultimately about if he did it or not (which, as you know, never matters to the Trump people anyway)......it is ultimately about whether you can justify the charge as a felony rather than a misdemeanor and if you can get 12 people to agree that you SHOULD convict a former American president and one who may be again soon, of this kind of charge. Is this something strong enough/bad enough/illegal enough to potentially bring down a guy who current leads in the polls.

My opinion is they have virtually no shot at convincing 12 people to convict under these circumstances, and it will end in a hung jury. But that's just my guess. The jury is mostly educated people, so that works against Trump.

I agree about the notes. It's not all about Cohen, he is just one piece of puzzle. That's why he will go close to last, to set up the puzzle and alleviate concerns about his lying/criminal record.

I don't expect an acquittal. I expect an hung jury.

I think they can prove at least one felony, which will help bump up the misdemeanor and that's tax evasion BUT getting 12 people to convict him will be tricky.

 

[Mdfgator]

Uninformed ideologues from each end of the spectrum are guilty of screaming at each other from across the great middle of this country.

No, we are in a boom now, the trump supporters can’t stop complaining about how bad things are. It’s pathetic.

 

[fatman76]

Bragg has a lot of people testifying. He never called Cohen his star witness. You never provided receipts of that. A media outlet saying it, is not Bragg.

Pecker is just as important because he can help corroborate somethings that Cohen will say. Since Cohen is an adjudicated liar, they will need more then just his word. That's why I think Pecker is just as important. If the jury believes Pecker, that makes Cohen more believable.

OK Kalim. You're right. Bragg never came out and literally said the words "star witness" (not that a prosecutor ever talks like that). But he fought like hell to make sure Cohen could testify...and literally every news outlet on both sides of the aisle consider him the star witness.

But I'm sure you know better. You're clearly an expert on the subject.

Trump trial: Key players in the New York hush money trial - Washington Examiner

Trump is heading into week three of his hush money trial in New York, and prosecutors have begun calling on a cast of characters from Trump's past as witnesses.

www.washingtonexaminer.com

Michael Cohen​

Cohen is the witness most directly involved in the activity cited in Bragg’s indictment. Prosecutors are expected to call him to the stand to testify about payments he arranged to help Trump’s 2016 campaign.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trumps-ex-fixer-michael-cohen-be-key-witness-hush-money-criminal-trial-2024-04-17/

Former 'fixer,' now star witness Michael Cohen to face Trump at fraud trial

Michael Cohen, who was once Donald Trump's confidant and self-described "fixer," is set to return to a courtroom as the star witness in Trump's $250 million fraud trial.

abcnews.go.com

Is ex-Trump lawyer Michael Cohen too flawed to be a star witness?

Cohen allegedly made $130,000 in payments on behalf of Trump to keep Stormy Daniels from going public.

www.newsnationnow.com

Manhattan DA doubles down on Michael Cohen as star witness in ‘hush money’ trial, as Trump lawyers rip gag order bid

Manhattan prosecutors on Tuesday pushed back on Donald Trump’s bid to keep Michael Cohen from testifying at the upcoming “hush money” criminal trial, arguing the ex-president&#821…

nypost.com

Trump: Prosecution’s ‘star’ witness in New York fraud case ‘lied like a dog on the stand’

Former President Trump took a victory lap on social media late Wednesday, claiming the prosecution’s case was “dead” after his former fixer Michael Cohen appeared to contradict himself on the stand…

thehill.com

Donald Trump is returning to his civil fraud trial, but star witness Michael Cohen won’t be there

NEW YORK (AP) — Former President Donald Trump returns to a New York City courthouse Tuesday to be a spectator at the civil fraud trial threatening to disrupt his real estate empire. Trump voluntari…

www.newsnationnow.com

Manhattan DA’s Star Witness: Indict Trump Now or I’m Out

The grand jury that the Manhattan DA summoned to go after the Trump Organization expires at the end of the month. If it doesn’t bring charges, a key witness says he’s done.

www.thedailybeast.com

Michael Cohen memoir casts him as ‘star witness’ against Trump

The White House called Cohen’s memoir ’fan fiction’

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[fatman76]

I agree about the notes. It's not all about Cohen, he is just one piece of puzzle. That's why he will go close to last, to set up the puzzle and alleviate concerns about his lying/criminal record.

I don't expect an acquittal. I expect an hung jury.

I think they can prove at least one felony, which will help bump up the misdemeanor and that's tax evasion BUT getting 12 people to convict him will be tricky.

Specifically what felony will they prove?

 

[kalimgoodman]

OK Kalim. You're right. Bragg never came out and literally said the words "star witness" (not that a prosecutor ever talks like that). But he fought like hell to make sure Cohen could testify...and literally every news outlet on both sides of the aisle consider him the star witness.

But I'm sure you know better. You're clearly an expert on the subject.

Trump trial: Key players in the New York hush money trial - Washington Examiner

Trump is heading into week three of his hush money trial in New York, and prosecutors have begun calling on a cast of characters from Trump's past as witnesses.

www.washingtonexaminer.com

Michael Cohen​

Cohen is the witness most directly involved in the activity cited in Bragg’s indictment. Prosecutors are expected to call him to the stand to testify about payments he arranged to help Trump’s 2016 campaign.

View embedded media

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trumps-ex-fixer-michael-cohen-be-key-witness-hush-money-criminal-trial-2024-04-17/

Former 'fixer,' now star witness Michael Cohen to face Trump at fraud trial

Michael Cohen, who was once Donald Trump's confidant and self-described "fixer," is set to return to a courtroom as the star witness in Trump's $250 million fraud trial.

abcnews.go.com

Is ex-Trump lawyer Michael Cohen too flawed to be a star witness?

Cohen allegedly made $130,000 in payments on behalf of Trump to keep Stormy Daniels from going public.

www.newsnationnow.com

Manhattan DA doubles down on Michael Cohen as star witness in ‘hush money’ trial, as Trump lawyers rip gag order bid

Manhattan prosecutors on Tuesday pushed back on Donald Trump’s bid to keep Michael Cohen from testifying at the upcoming “hush money” criminal trial, arguing the ex-president&#821…

nypost.com

View embedded media

Trump: Prosecution’s ‘star’ witness in New York fraud case ‘lied like a dog on the stand’

Former President Trump took a victory lap on social media late Wednesday, claiming the prosecution’s case was “dead” after his former fixer Michael Cohen appeared to contradict himself on the stand…

thehill.com

Donald Trump is returning to his civil fraud trial, but star witness Michael Cohen won’t be there

NEW YORK (AP) — Former President Donald Trump returns to a New York City courthouse Tuesday to be a spectator at the civil fraud trial threatening to disrupt his real estate empire. Trump voluntari…

www.newsnationnow.com

View embedded media

Manhattan DA’s Star Witness: Indict Trump Now or I’m Out

The grand jury that the Manhattan DA summoned to go after the Trump Organization expires at the end of the month. If it doesn’t bring charges, a key witness says he’s done.

www.thedailybeast.com

Michael Cohen memoir casts him as ‘star witness’ against Trump

The White House called Cohen’s memoir ’fan fiction’

www.theglobeandmail.com

I already said that Cohen is an important witness.

 

[kalimgoodman]

Specifically what felony will they prove?

Sections 1801(a)(3) and 1802 of the New York Tax Law

 

[fatman76]

Sections 1801(a)(3) and 1802 of the New York Tax Law

Violations of those codes are class A misdemeanors that have had the statute of limitations expire in this case.

Bragg is trying to elevate them to felonies and reset the statute of limitations - do you understand how he's doing so?

 

[kalimgoodman]

Violations of those codes are class A misdemeanors that have had the statute of limitations expire in this case.

Bragg is trying to elevate them to felonies and reset the statute of limitations - do you understand how he's doing so?

I already know this. I was answering your question about what can he proof. I know you're about to attempt to take me on a crazy ride of switching topics.

He has to show that he committed a misdemeanor to protect another crime, which will bump that misdemeanor to a felony.

 

[fatman76]

I already know this. I was answering your question about what can he proof. I know you're about to attempt to take me on a crazy ride of switching topics.

He has to show that he committed a misdemeanor to protect another crime, which will bump that misdemeanor to a felony.

What was "the other crime"?

 

[greyghost14]

Gag orders are sketchy constitutionallly, just saying.

 

[kalimgoodman]

What was "the other crime"?

Let's the trial play out. It's Bragg job to show us.

 

[kalimgoodman]

Gag orders are sketchy constitutionallly, just saying.

Why haven't they ever been challenged in court?

 

[fatman76]

Let's the trial play out. It's Bragg job to show us.

That’s not how trials work.

You don’t start a trial and figure out the crime as you go.

What is the broader crime Bragg is accusing Trump of?

 

[LordofallSocks]

Why haven't they ever been challenged in court?

Probably because nobody wanted to hang out in jail on a contempt charge.

Someone has to be the test case, after all.

 

[kalimgoodman]

Probably because nobody wanted to hang out in jail on a contempt charge.

Someone has to be the test case, after all.

True, I'm just shocked that it's been a thing for so long and never really challenged.

 

[kalimgoodman]

That’s not how trials work.

You don’t start a trial and figure out the crime as you go.

What is the broader crime Bragg is accusing Trump of?

Oh I never said that. Bragg clearly defined the charges in his indictment. I thought you were asking did he prove a crime yet.

"Falsifying Business Records in the First Degree, a class E felony, 34 counts"

You can read the charges below.

District Attorney Bragg Announces 34-Count Felony Indictment of Former President Donald J. Trump

“The People of the State of New York allege that Donald J. Trump repeatedly and fraudulently falsified New York business records to conceal crimes that hid damaging information from the voting public during the 2016 presidential election,” said District Attorney Bragg. “Manhattan is home to the coun

manhattanda.org

https://manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Donald-J.-Trump-Indictment.pdf

 

[Orangeclad]

Probably because nobody wanted to hang out in jail on a contempt charge.

Someone has to be the test case, after all.

The judge obviously shows his bias with his handing out of gag orders.

 

[nothergator]

Let's the trial play out. It's Bragg job to show us.

Do you mean you can prosecute someone without stating beforehand what crime they are alleged to have committed. This can only happen in N.Y. with a Democrat prosecutor and judge.

 

[nothergator]

Oh I never said that. Bragg clearly defined the charges in his indictment. I thought you were asking did he prove a crime yet.

"Falsifying Business Records in the First Degree, a class E felony, 34 counts"

You can read the charges below.

District Attorney Bragg Announces 34-Count Felony Indictment of Former President Donald J. Trump

“The People of the State of New York allege that Donald J. Trump repeatedly and fraudulently falsified New York business records to conceal crimes that hid damaging information from the voting public during the 2016 presidential election,” said District Attorney Bragg. “Manhattan is home to the coun

manhattanda.org

https://manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Donald-J.-Trump-Indictment.pdf

These felony charges require Trump to be found guilty on the misdemeanor charge which because of the statue of limitations is illegal. I don't see how the judge is going to instruct thr jury on the proper law and is why this case should be thrown out.

 

[LordofallSocks]

True, I'm just shocked that it's been a thing for so long and never really challenged.

you would be surprised how many unconstitutional laws are on th^ books simply because they've never been challenged.

 

[nothergator]

These felony charges require Trump to be found guilty on the misdemeanor charge which because of the statue of limitations is illegal. I don't see how the judge is going to instruct thr jury on the proper law and is why this case should be thrown out.

I am not a legal expert but i do know that one of the fundamental prinicipals of our judicial system is that the person being tried is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. So this judge must instruct this jury that when considering the felony charges that are based upon a misdemeanor they must presume Trump innocent because his guilt on the misdemeanor was never established in a court of law. And the prosecutor cannot go back now and estabish his guilt because the time limit has expired.

 

[Capt Ron 1]

It is as simple as this...when you campaign on "getting Trump" before you have ANY evidence of a crime...it is an illegal investigation. In America...you commit a crime...then get prosecuted. Not arrest someone..then try to find wrongdoing!

 

[kalimgoodman]

These felony charges require Trump to be found guilty on the misdemeanor charge which because of the statue of limitations is illegal. I don't see how the judge is going to instruct thr jury on the proper law and is why this case should be thrown out.

I'm not sure if what you're saying is accurate.

 

[kalimgoodman]

The judge obviously shows his bias with his handing out of gag orders.

I don't see how a gag order shows bias. The judge also warned Cohen to shut up but I bet you never knew that.

 

[fatman76]

Oh I never said that. Bragg clearly defined the charges in his indictment. I thought you were asking did he prove a crime yet.

"Falsifying Business Records in the First Degree, a class E felony, 34 counts"

You can read the charges below.

District Attorney Bragg Announces 34-Count Felony Indictment of Former President Donald J. Trump

“The People of the State of New York allege that Donald J. Trump repeatedly and fraudulently falsified New York business records to conceal crimes that hid damaging information from the voting public during the 2016 presidential election,” said District Attorney Bragg. “Manhattan is home to the coun

manhattanda.org

https://manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Donald-J.-Trump-Indictment.pdf

I’ve read the charges. You missed the key point.

“including attempts to violate state and federal election laws.”

The way Bragg brought these charges well after the statute of limitations expired is he tied the activity to federal election interference. So he has to prove these payments were directly related to the election. And a state prosecutor is bringing a federal case the feds wouldn’t touch.

In other words - he has to prove that he wasn’t protecting his marriage, kids or business interests.

That probably gets past a jury that’s 92% hyper-liberal, but it’ll fail on appeal.

Finally - given the timing and location of the entire case, do you see the irony that it centers around election interference? Whats changed since 2017? Why bring it within 6 months of an election?

 

[fatman76]

I don't see how a gag order shows bias. The judge also warned Cohen to shut up but I bet you never knew that.

Well it’s not working, he’s not being fined, and there’s no gag order.

Bet you never knew that….

 

[kalimgoodman]

I’ve read the charges. You missed the key point.

“including attempts to violate state and federal election laws.”

The way Bragg brought these charges well after the statute of limitations expired is he tied the activity to federal election interference. So he has to prove these payments were directly related to the election. And a state prosecutor is bringing a federal case the feds wouldn’t touch.

In other words - he has to prove that he wasn’t protecting his marriage, kids or business interests.

That probably gets past a jury that’s 92% hyper-liberal, but it’ll fail on appeal.

Finally - given the timing and location of the entire case, do you see the irony that it centers around election interference? Whats changed since 2017? Why bring it within 6 months of an election?

Well you actually started out really fair but then you closed with right wing propaganda.

I agree that he has to show those payments were directly tied to the election and not to protect wife. If you have been following, Braggs team is doing that, well attempting to. Pecker testified that his family never came up and all he cared about was impacting the election. Pecker admitted that he knew it was illegal when they were doing it. Also, Trump will have to testify in order for that defense to work. I strongly doubt that Trump will say that but you never know.

Also, you're not completely accurate about the SOL on all of those charges. It's more complicated because some are impacted by covid.

You don't know the jury political opinions and you don't know if they can or can not be an impartial juror. That's your political bias showing.

That last paragraph is just inaccurate. Bragg wanted to trial the case earlier but Trump delay tactics made it this late.

You do know that Trump was referred to as "individual 1" in the Cohen case and had he not been president, he would've been charged? That guy Vance wrote that in his book.

 

[kalimgoodman]

Well it’s not working, he’s not being fined, and there’s no gag order.

Bet you never knew that….

View embedded media

I'm on your side with this. Trump should be allowed to comment on Cohen, since he is commenting on him.

 

[nothergator]

I'm not sure if what you're saying is accurate.

I agree not sure either but I am sure this case is a farce.

 

[Illegal-shift]

I have heard several lawyers discuss this. The guys on here who are pretending they know the law clearly don't.

I'm on your side with this. Trump should be allowed to comment on Cohen, since he is commenting on him.

Trump is the defendant. Cohen is a witness. The rule isn't the same for both.

 

[nothergator]

That’s not how trials work.

You don’t start a trial and figure out the crime as you go.

What is the broader crime Bragg is accusing Trump of?

Hey Fatman just a clarification if you don't mind. I thought most folks were in agreement that NDA's and suppressing bad press("catch and kill") was not illegal.

 

[nothergator]

Hey Fatman just a clarification if you don't mind. I thought most folks were in agreement that NDA's and suppressing bad press("catch and kill") was not illegal.

I am wondering because Kalim claims that Pecker testified that Trump knew what they were doing was illegal, But all I thought Pecker testified about was NDA and/or suppressing bad press, I don't think that is illegal and if that be true then Peckers' testimony is ignorant.

 

[Mdfgator]

Paying hush money to get rid of, for pennies, a distraction is not illegal per reports from CNN and even the Economist.

i think the issue is were the funds from the campaign or not. its a silly trial. if it were me, simply for optics, i would not pursue it even if i thought i could get him for soemthing.

 

[Mdfgator]

Non disclosure agreements, which is the reason why Stormy got paid, ARE NOT ILLEGAL. People sign them and get paid ALL THE TIME.

with what funds??

 

[Mdfgator]

I didn't care til he lied about it under oath.

i never cared and still dont, and i dont care about trump grabbing them by the pussy either, i care about the tax code and the trade that is the american dream, 40 hours and a nice house with a sweet loving wife. without that trade for the average man and woman the system doesnt work well.

 

[Mdfgator]

Let's skip to the point I'm making. Generally if you have affairs and don't want people to know about them, you hide ALL OF THEM.

true unless the affair was when your wife was pregnant, that makes a bit more splashy headlines. This trial is silly, i think everyone knows that.

 

[Capt Ron 1]

These lil whiney libs are just as crooked as THEIR politicans. Scum people who have no morals. How do you say democrat...without saying democrat? Garbage people

 

[Mdfgator]

These lil whiney libs are just as crooked as THEIR politicans. Scum people who have no morals. How do you say democrat...without saying democrat? Garbage people

dont lump in thses losers with the democratic party unless you want the unite the right and the nsurrectionists lumped in with all republicans. lots of trash everywhere i look.

 

[fatman76]

Hey Fatman just a clarification if you don't mind. I thought most folks were in agreement that NDA's and suppressing bad press("catch and kill") was not illegal.

"Catch and kill" is a talking point term to make something that's perfectly legal sound illegal, correct.

And the records the Trump organization (Trump was not an accountant and never had anything to do with the way things were classified or filed) were all internal and not even used for tax purposes.

This case is almost as bad as the NY financing case.

No victim, no crime.

Paying attorneys to file NDA's is common practice - and it doesn't mean you're admitting guilt. These small amounts pale in comparison to what court costs would have been had Trump sued for defamation.