Um, how can you say what you expect from an offense when you are essentially almost in the same position. How many oline are we going to have, who is the qb, is the qb going to be a true frosh who has to adjust to the speed of the college game, how much of the playbook does he know? Do you already know whose leaving and whose staying? All things that would have to have some answers before making predictions.
What if Muschamp's offense next year is better than Mcelwain's?
- Thread starter Zoni_Gator
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Um, how can you say what you expect from an offense when you are essentially almost in the same position. How many oline are we going to have, who is the qb, is the qb going to be a true frosh who has to adjust to the speed of the college game, how much of the playbook does he know? Do you already know whose leaving and whose staying? All things that would have to have some answers before making predictions.
Study the roster. We are returning 3/5 on the oline. Based on Mac's comments Taylor and D-Rob are gone. McGee is a senior. Everyone else returns. That should be enough to go off of. Why is it that people who were so confident the offense would be good once we removed the one problem can't go on record and say I think we'll be (insert metric here) good? It ain't difficult. Especially since people were already convinced it was better this year. Year 2 under a staff should then logically show a big improvement.
It's a point of comparison because we frankly underperformed. Here's all you need to know
This year we were better at:
QB
RB
TE
WR
And supposedly in a much better offense against an easier schedule and produced worse results. I don't want to hear anything about an oline because when I continually pointed out their horrific performances in the game threads it was always about the QB. He held the ball too long. He can't pass so that's why FAU is manhandling them and on and on. So you guys don't get to use them as a crutch now. 'Bbbbbut the offense was worse this year because the oline was worse.'
I think the offense will most certainly be better next year. It will also be year 2 in the system. With that being said I still would like to wait and see who the starting QB is going to be first. QB is the most important position on the field.
Harris is a worse QB than Driskel IMO.
Harris is a worse QB than Driskel IMO.
I thought I did put it into words. I specifically said we were using our tight ends and throwing the ball downfield, which is something we seldom did with Muschamp's offense. I saw very few dropped balls and receivers wide open. Having the time to throw because of a young line and/or young quarterback was about what I expected. Also based on the expectations of the line I thought at times we ran the ball decently. I don't keep up with stats so I'm not going to try to say how we were better or worse from Muschamp statistically. I only know what I saw on the field when Grier was QB.
I would say we certainly weren't better at RB or QB (once Grier got suspended). Last year we had Matt Jones at RB in addition to Taylor and obviously we had less talent at oline this year.
How can you guys say we're not better at QB? Grier isn't better than Harris and Driskel? Keep in mind that the numbers I've posted (and the ones we were discussing) are solely from when Grier started, and the offense was considerably worse across the board in comparison to be dumpster fire we saw a year ago. What's the explanation for that? I've already discounted the games Treon started, I would be dumb to hold that against the coaches.
A Grier-Harris combo is better than a Driskel-Harris combo but unfortunately we only had Grier for 6 games so that left us with just Harris. Last year we had Driskel, Harris and even Morningweg. This year we were basically down to Harris and Grady. Really really bad.
Right but that doesn't factor into the comparison I made. The meme around here is that the offense was really good and improved under Grier. So I looked at the stats of only the games Grier started. So the poor performances under Harris aren't factored into the averages at all. And in those games Grier started the offensive production was worse than last years on a per game average basis almost across the board. And our yardage total was below the yard per game average those defenses give up in 3/5 of Grier's starts. Nobody can provide an explanation for that.
This is how I know you have no idea what was actually happening on the offense when Muschamp was the coach.
It was discussed ad nausea on this board by Oozie, Numbers, TampaGator and Me.
I point you back to the 2012 UGA game. For the entire game when Jordan Reed was on the field, he stayed into block. Finally, in the fourth quarter he released and went downfield. He was open by a mile. The play was set up beautifully. It should have gone for a big gain, but didn't. What happened? Driskel held the ball too long and got sacked.
This absolutely asinine opinion is completely ludicrous.
"We didn't throw the ball downfield under Muschamp."
Yes, we did. Driskel either didn't complete the passes because he was so inaccurate or he didn't get the pass off because he held it too long. He always wanted to wait to throw the ball until he believed the receiver was open. He couldn't anticipate when they were going to come open by leading them with the ball. Thus, he hardly ever completed a pass over 10-15 yards long. So the passes were either incomplete or never made.
"We never called screen passes under Muschamp."
Yes we did. Driskel screwed those up for the same reason that downfield passing didn't work. He wanted to wait until the running back was open by five yards. Except that never happens in screens to running backs because the play is designed to fool an aggressive defense.
After Driskel demonstrated he simply could not function effectively in a passing offense guess what happened to the game plans?
That's right. We ran the ball. We ran the ball over and over and over again because the passing game was so crappy.
I am so SICK AND TIRED of reading about this myth.
Only for some magical reason for as bad as Driskel is he managed to throw for over 3500 yards and had a 3-1 TD/Interception ratio this year and a QB rating of over 150. Somehow this happened and that is even with Skip Holtz coaching the team.
Under Muschamp not one time in 4 years could we had done that going against "air" in the passing game.
Under Muschamp not one time in 4 years could we had done that going against "air" in the passing game.
And yet you continue to do so.
Not only that, but you also continue to whine about it.
Is someone turning on your CPU and holding a gun to your head, forcing you to?
HINT: Jus-freakin' STOP-IT!
Guess I'm not the expert you are but I'm pretty confident that it takes more than just the quarterback to make a play work. Under Muschamp we were not effective throwing the ball downfield and by that I mean we didn't complete many downfield passes. Doesn't matter to me if Driskel threw a bad pass or the receiver ran the wrong route or dropped the ball, usually a combination.
My point was we had no effective downfield passing. At the end of the day in my opinion it comes down to coaching. I think how Driskel performed at La Tech should tell you he wasn't the only problem. You can blame Driskel but by no means was he the only issue. My initial post was to only point out that when Grier was QB we had an effective downfield passing game and were utilizing our tight ends. I believe that Driskel could have been successful in this offense. I believe the players had no confidence in their offense and were poorly coached.
We ran the ball well because we had a strong line which is why four of them were drafted. With one returning starter on the line and a new QB not sure how you could say we didn't have a more effective downfield passing game. I have no idea what to expect next year as we will still be young on the line and probably starting a freshmen QB but I like what I saw with Grier at QB and over the next few years I'm confident we'll see improvement.
I think the OLine play will be much improved. As will the WR corp. RBs will be about the same. TE will be as good, even with McGee graduating. We have some good depth there.
Of course, the play of the QB position will be a key. There will be three guys competing for the starting job over the spring and fall; Harris, Del Rio and Franks.
I expect McE to find a competent one from that group. And even though I have never seen Del Rio and Franks play on the college level, I will be very disappointed if they do not look better next year than Harris did this year. Hell, it might even be possible that Harris could improve. But sadly, for all his hard work and dedication, I do not see that happening.
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Grier reads coverage better than Harris. Grier has a much quicker release. Grier makes quicker decisions. Grier has better wheels. With each start, Grier was showing signs of improvement. Harris did not.
I disagree with a couple of your talking points MJ.
RB's will be much better.
KT? + J.Cronkrite + J.Scarlett + M.Thompson + L.Perine + some others for deep depth.
Even if KT leaves early, that's still going to be a LOADED RB group.
I also think that the TE's as a group will be better, IF they can stay healthy.
I believe than only 2 QB's will be in the 'serious' QB competiton:
QB-PP Kyle Trask 6-6 218
QB-PP Feleipe Franks 6-6 220
Those two will likely look like brothers or clones at QB.
And anyone who discounts Trask is likely uninformed about him.
(go to MaxPreps and watch some film on him)
Footwork, timing, arm strength, mechanics, etc... (15 TD's, ZERO Ints)
Just wait until you see him (them) on the field in the Spring.
I believe that their QB worries are pretty much over now....
RB's will be much better.
KT? + J.Cronkrite + J.Scarlett + M.Thompson + L.Perine + some others for deep depth.
Even if KT leaves early, that's still going to be a LOADED RB group.
I also think that the TE's as a group will be better, IF they can stay healthy.
I believe than only 2 QB's will be in the 'serious' QB competiton:
QB-PP Kyle Trask 6-6 218
QB-PP Feleipe Franks 6-6 220
Those two will likely look like brothers or clones at QB.
And anyone who discounts Trask is likely uninformed about him.
(go to MaxPreps and watch some film on him)
Footwork, timing, arm strength, mechanics, etc... (15 TD's, ZERO Ints)
Just wait until you see him (them) on the field in the Spring.
I believe that their QB worries are pretty much over now....
Hope you are right. I expect them to have better numbers, if for no other reason than an improved OL
Hard to see that. We are not adding anyone that is as good as McGee
Good catch. Forgot about Trask.
We all can have our opinions and speculation here, that's the fun of it.
My reasons include:
RB List:
Mark Herndon 5-9 198 rsSr *** 3L (GP-13/0, ST's)
Kelvin Taylor 5-10 205 Sr ***** 3L -- (GP-13/10 - Possible early departure)
Case Harrison 6-0 198 rsJr *** (GP-3/0, ST's)
Jordan Cronkrite 5-11 205 So **** 1L (GP-12/1)
Jordan Scarlett 5-10 198 4.4/40 So **** 1L (GP-9/1)
Tyriek Hopkins 5-8 175 rsFr ** SQ
------------
#1 JuCo RB Mark Thompson 6-2 230 4.37/40 Jr **** EE
#35 RB Lamical Perine 5-10 215 4.7/40 Fr **** (Possible EE-?)
#15 Ath/CB/#50-RB McArthur Burnett 6-0 185 4.41/40 *** (CB or RB yet to be decided)
=============
While McGee was a very solid 6th year Sr, others will shine now that he's gone.
DeAndre Goolsby 6-4 243 Jr 2L (GP-13/5)
C'yontai Lewis 6-4 228 rsSo 1L (GP-8/1)
(was on his way to stardom imo, before being injured)
Camrin Knight 6-3 230 rsFr 1L (GP-7/0)
Moral Stephens 6-3 240 rsSo 1L (GP-6/0)
That's all 4 2016 TE's with 2015 game time experience, and 2 with starts.
And that's before any 2016 TE's that might be in this class.
* I expect the 9 roster QB's to thin out considerably by the spring game.
Serious 2016 QB's will be Franks, Trask, and eventually Grier.
My reasons include:
RB List:
Mark Herndon 5-9 198 rsSr *** 3L (GP-13/0, ST's)
Kelvin Taylor 5-10 205 Sr ***** 3L -- (GP-13/10 - Possible early departure)
Case Harrison 6-0 198 rsJr *** (GP-3/0, ST's)
Jordan Cronkrite 5-11 205 So **** 1L (GP-12/1)
Jordan Scarlett 5-10 198 4.4/40 So **** 1L (GP-9/1)
Tyriek Hopkins 5-8 175 rsFr ** SQ
------------
#1 JuCo RB Mark Thompson 6-2 230 4.37/40 Jr **** EE
#35 RB Lamical Perine 5-10 215 4.7/40 Fr **** (Possible EE-?)
#15 Ath/CB/#50-RB McArthur Burnett 6-0 185 4.41/40 *** (CB or RB yet to be decided)
=============
While McGee was a very solid 6th year Sr, others will shine now that he's gone.
DeAndre Goolsby 6-4 243 Jr 2L (GP-13/5)
C'yontai Lewis 6-4 228 rsSo 1L (GP-8/1)
(was on his way to stardom imo, before being injured)
Camrin Knight 6-3 230 rsFr 1L (GP-7/0)
Moral Stephens 6-3 240 rsSo 1L (GP-6/0)
That's all 4 2016 TE's with 2015 game time experience, and 2 with starts.
And that's before any 2016 TE's that might be in this class.
* I expect the 9 roster QB's to thin out considerably by the spring game.
Serious 2016 QB's will be Franks, Trask, and eventually Grier.
Our backs should be more talented but I'm still not sold on that oline until further notice. And if we start a true freshman hard to see our passing game taking enough pressure off to allow us to run successfully. Our line struggled to run block even in the games we did have a passing game with Grier. We had less than 3 ypc in a good bit of those games, which is pathetic. They are still not good enough to where we can line up and run regardless, like in 12' for example.
Just a little FYI on the steadily improving OL situation....
OL List:
OG/C Cameron Dillard 6-4 308 rsJr 2L (GP-12/11)
OG Antonio Riles 6-4 322 rsJr 2L (GP-10/6)
LT David Sharpe 6-6 355 Jr 2L (GP-13/12)
OG Travaris Dorsey 6-2 318 rsSo 1L (GP-10/0)
OG/OT Andrew Mike 6-6 302 rsSo 1L (GP-3/0)
LT/LG Martez Ivey 6-5 302 So 1L (GP-11/7)
RT Fred Johnson 6-6 305 So 1L (GP-7/1)
C/OG Tyler Jordan 6-4 292 So 1L (GP-13/2)
Three (3) tFr were good enough to play and to start in 2015.
----------------
OT Marcel Benalcazar 6-7 334 rsJr SQ (xfer FSU summer 2015)
OT/OG Kavaris Harkness 6-5 300 rsSo SQ
OG Zach Shinn 6-2 280 rsSo SQ
OG Nick Buchanan 6-2 285 rsFr SQ
OG Marcus Givens 6-0 263 rsFr SQ
OG Richerd Desir-Jones 6-4 290 rsFr SQ
C/OG T.J. McCoy 6-1 302 rsFr SQ
OG Brandon Sandifer 6-3 357 rsFr SQ
OG Nick Villano 6-2 312 rsFr SQ
OG Donovan Welch 6-4 286 rsFr SQ
Several of those will be in the 2016 playing rotation.
------------
#6 OC Brett Heggie 6-4 304 5.4/40 Fr ***
#46 OG Jawaan Taylor 6-4 345 Fr *** (Mia-flip)
#54 OG/#62-OT Stone Forsythe 6-7 331 Fr *** EE
* Notice the size of the OL'men that Mc-Staff recruit.
---------------
The possible Heavy 'short yardage' OL: (Average 6-5 335)
LT David Sharpe 6-6 355 Jr
LG Antonio Riles 6-4 322 rsJr
OC Cameron Dillard 6-4 308 rsJr
RG Brandon Sandifer 6-3 357 rsFr
RT Marcel Benalcazar 6-7 334 rsJr
==============
I was one of the very few that believed that our Gators had at least an outside 'dark-horse' shot at the SECe-C in 2015.
I might again be one of the few that believes that the 2016 team will be better.
OL List:
OG/C Cameron Dillard 6-4 308 rsJr 2L (GP-12/11)
OG Antonio Riles 6-4 322 rsJr 2L (GP-10/6)
LT David Sharpe 6-6 355 Jr 2L (GP-13/12)
OG Travaris Dorsey 6-2 318 rsSo 1L (GP-10/0)
OG/OT Andrew Mike 6-6 302 rsSo 1L (GP-3/0)
LT/LG Martez Ivey 6-5 302 So 1L (GP-11/7)
RT Fred Johnson 6-6 305 So 1L (GP-7/1)
C/OG Tyler Jordan 6-4 292 So 1L (GP-13/2)
Three (3) tFr were good enough to play and to start in 2015.
----------------
OT Marcel Benalcazar 6-7 334 rsJr SQ (xfer FSU summer 2015)
OT/OG Kavaris Harkness 6-5 300 rsSo SQ
OG Zach Shinn 6-2 280 rsSo SQ
OG Nick Buchanan 6-2 285 rsFr SQ
OG Marcus Givens 6-0 263 rsFr SQ
OG Richerd Desir-Jones 6-4 290 rsFr SQ
C/OG T.J. McCoy 6-1 302 rsFr SQ
OG Brandon Sandifer 6-3 357 rsFr SQ
OG Nick Villano 6-2 312 rsFr SQ
OG Donovan Welch 6-4 286 rsFr SQ
Several of those will be in the 2016 playing rotation.
------------
#6 OC Brett Heggie 6-4 304 5.4/40 Fr ***
#46 OG Jawaan Taylor 6-4 345 Fr *** (Mia-flip)
#54 OG/#62-OT Stone Forsythe 6-7 331 Fr *** EE
* Notice the size of the OL'men that Mc-Staff recruit.
---------------
The possible Heavy 'short yardage' OL: (Average 6-5 335)
LT David Sharpe 6-6 355 Jr
LG Antonio Riles 6-4 322 rsJr
OC Cameron Dillard 6-4 308 rsJr
RG Brandon Sandifer 6-3 357 rsFr
RT Marcel Benalcazar 6-7 334 rsJr
==============
I was one of the very few that believed that our Gators had at least an outside 'dark-horse' shot at the SECe-C in 2015.
I might again be one of the few that believes that the 2016 team will be better.
QB I would call a wash, Matt Jones has become a fantasy footballers dream, so no, we were not better at rb, agree on TE and Calloway made the WR group better. But the Oline was so drastically worse. As to the schedule, 1aa EKU and 1aa Eastern Michigan were on the schedule last year, so not sure I would call the schedule easier this year. Harris was not a fit for what Mac wants to do, and that showed. Somehow Mac won the east, which already places him well ahead of champ.
Yes, let's just ignore the decimated offensive line, the learning curve on a new offense, and starting a QB with zero college experience. smh
Ok I guess. So teams with lesser talent and experience than us who lit up these teams are what? What is the explanation for that? They aren't more talented, so are you indirectly admitting they're better coached? Why did they get better results against a common opponent? Lucky on offense I guess? Idk why it's so hard to admit the obvious here. No one is asking for miracles, but even against horrid teams like ECU or UK we somehow managed to not even be able to be 'average' against them. When our offense was at its best, with Grier, we got below the defenses average yards given up in 3/5 of the games.
A week before we played ECU freaking Towson dropped 20 on them and has as many yards as we did on that defense. UK gave up 33 and over 500 plus yards to Louisiana Lafayette, we got half that and 14. South Carolina's putrid offense also lit them up. They have better talent than us? Better oline? They didn't have any changes?
Ok. Awesome fact filled response. When you can't refute the facts, attack the messenger. Yea what would I know anyway? You certainly have all the answers.
I get your point Ooz, but you can't make those comparisons without acknowledging that we were a lot bigger game for those teams. You played football at a high level, and you know that some games you were more focused and amped up versus others. We tend to get everyone's best shot, comes with the territory.
Agree with that too, but in some cases the gap in talent should make up for all that. We absolutely were hampered by personnel in some spots, but I'm pretty sure teams like Towson and UL Lafayette are way worse off than we are, somehow they managed.
Some people are just hellbent on excusing this offenses performance completely, it's so weird. I promise it's not an indictment on Mac, you can be critical. And as I've said before a lot of it has to do with the trash Muschamp left here, so again not all on the current staff. But you can still point that out and simultaneously think we didn't do a good job in a few games. It's like if people have to admit that they're no longer superfan, no matter what the mounting evidence says. Stupid way to go though life, but have at it.
I just call em like I see em.
And what I see is someone who evidently doesn't understand how the 20 hour a week limitation makes it just about impossible to install a full offense in a first year, doesn't understand that losing 4+ starters off an offensive line is going to create a weakness the next year, and that a QB who has never taken a snap in a college game might struggle his first few games.
Lesser talent and experience? We had what I consider acceptable depth, talent and experience on the DLine. We had acceptable talent and experience in the secondary. That's it. Green as grass at every position on offense, except maybe tight end. We didn't have enough linebackers to run a base defense, so can't judge that position. Teams like Towson and LA-Laf have multi year starters all over the place. Yet you dismiss them like they are nothing. And yes, I think that nearly everybody had a better Oline than we did. Our oline overachieved mightily, and were helped by a lack of injuries the first half of the year.
Sure they had changes. All teams have changes. But how many of those teams had a new coach, a freshman QB AND a rebuilt offensive line? I'll bet none. There was a REASON we were picked 5th in the conference in the preseason. But for some reason you want to forget all that and act like it should have been Fun & Gun II this year. That somehow winning 10 games and the East was a disappointment.
You want criticism of the coaching staff? I think we did a very poor job with Austin Hardin this year. Kicking the ball high is nothing more than mechanics.
More strawmen. No one was expecting fun and gun. And lmao@ touting teams like LA Lagayette's and Towson's experience when they don't have a single player that would start at UF. And likely none that would make the two deep. But the reason they lit up those defenses and we couldn't was experience. Ok. Why don't you ask any coach which they'd rather have, talent or experience. You're just going out of your way to ignore what's in front of you. Us not being able to score on those teams have nothing to do with experience. It's a combination of poor talent in some areas and then bad coaching on top of it (Nuss).
Yes I wouldn't know. And we are apparently the only school in the ncaa who has to deal with the 20 hour work week or replacing players. That's why teams with less talent than we do were able to light up teams we struggled to get first downs against. I wonder how everyone else gets by?
And btw you don't need to preach to me about the oline. I've been harping on their performance or lackthereof since game 1. And when I did, from game 1-12, all you geniuses told me it was poor QB play affecting the oline and not the other way around, especially once Harris started playing. Oh but not that I've shown the offense wasn't good to start the year either, well now the oline matters. Funny how that works. Been harping on our lack of ability to run the ball thus leaving us in 3rd and long consistently for months. So welcome to the club. But guess what? We also barely did anything to help that struggling line, with either QB. So it's as much poor coaching as it is talent.
You've been wrong on so many issues in fields of knowledge where you know next nothing (like trying to tell JDGator about antitrust law until he pounded you into the ground) that maybe one day you'll quit while you're ahead.
Oozie has more credibility on this issue then you ever will.
Wrong again. E.Mich is in the D-1 MAC. They are not a 1aa team.
UF is not FSUcks, to play 2 teams that are not D-1's in a season.
And Matt Jones has the same problem in the NFL that he had in college.
He's had 5 fumbles with 4 of them being lost possession fumbles.
Ooz, at least on my end of things, it did come across that you were more willing to blame the OL than Treon (and vice versa for many other people).
I don't think anyone thought that all the OL problems were Treon, but it became incredibly frustrating to watch him have time to throw and he couldn't get the ball out to receivers on even short slants. Wasn't anticipating the break. Etc.
Ironically, we have fallen into the same problems of the last four years ago too much focus on one or two issues as opposed to the dozen issues that lead to the performance on the field.
I don't think anyone thought that all the OL problems were Treon, but it became incredibly frustrating to watch him have time to throw and he couldn't get the ball out to receivers on even short slants. Wasn't anticipating the break. Etc.
Ironically, we have fallen into the same problems of the last four years ago too much focus on one or two issues as opposed to the dozen issues that lead to the performance on the field.
If it seemed like I focused on OL too much, it was likely to combat the people who just refused to hold them accountable for anything during the games. Poor teams would like FAU would drive our center 4 yards into the backfield blowing up on run plays on consecutive downs but instead of focusing on that people would focus on Treon not getting rid of a ball on time on 3rd and long. That's annoying and silly, I'm more concerned about why we're in that position to begin with. I said repeatedly that Treon was bad but because I refused to pinpoint him as THE problem everyone thought I was some sort of apologist for him. As I've been saying, it's a ton of different issues and I've been consistent on that from game 1 this year. It's in all the game threads. Was talking about deficiencies in play calling dating all the way back to UK.
And like I would say in the game threads, people would focus on the 5-6 times he got time and missed the throw instead of the other 25 where two seconds after the snap he was eating dirt. That just logically makes no sense to me. What hurts more? A handful of missed throws a game in 40+ snaps of offense or getting blown up 20+ times in those 40 snaps? And in our case where we couldn't run the ball even against really poor defenses, it just ain't gonna work. It didn't with Grier either as the stats show. We had exactly one good game on offense...Ole Miss. And when you consider they're 100th in pass yards allowed it suddenly doesn't look so good. Only elite QB's can overcome constantly being in 2nd and 3rd and long and having to throw into secondaries that know you have to throw. And that compounded by an oline that can't pass block. Treon damn sure isn't good enough to do that so we saw what we saw on offense. It would be like sticking Tebow in a drop back offend with all those issues, it would look just as bad. It will be the same next year too unless the oline gets better.
You're right, but their 3 consecutive 2 win seasons was impressive.Wrong again. E.Mich is in the D-1 MAC. They are not a 1aa team.
UF is not FSUcks, to play 2 teams that are not D-1's in a season.
And Matt Jones has the same problem in the NFL that he had in college.
He's had 5 fumbles with 4 of them being lost possession fumbles.
