I don't care about Treon, the offense wasn't good in the games Grier started either as the numbers I posted above show. We improved by 40 ypc passing only with the best pure QB we've had since Leak. That's basically two more intermediate throws a game approximately. Against shifty defenses like ECU and UK we sucked. We lit up Ole Miss and then the very next week managed 2 TD's against a bad Mizzou team. Every other area of the offense dropped across the board. If we all agree that Grier is that good and that Mac is that good of an offensive coach, then why could we still not outperform Muschamp's shitty offense? Other than oline we were more talented this year at every other position. Last year we had a bad Driskel and then a bad true freshman Treon for half he season throwing to former defensive linemen and yet...still produced better against better defenses. That doesn't concern anybody?
What if Muschamp's offense next year is better than Mcelwain's?
- Thread starter Zoni_Gator
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Other than the shooting, how did you enjoy the play Mrs. Lincoln?
The o-line is kinda important for what Mac is trying to do. Throw in a QB that did know his ass from a first down marker, and it ain't that hard to figure out why the offensive numbers weren't better.
We wouldn't have gone bowling with Muschamp most likely. But let's not go the other way and credit all our 10 wins to coaching either. If Butch Jones isn't a moron and goes prevent with 10 minutes left in the game we lose to UT. ECU QB's fumbled untouched while they were driving. We held on for dear life against a shitty UK team. And all that was before Treon played a snap. Then there was Vandy and FAU. We're much closer to being 6-6 than we are to being a legit 10-2 team. Not the point either way though. For some unknown reason, people are giving this atrocious offense a pass, when it sucked even with in the games with the best QB we've had in almost a decade. So many mental gymnastics.
Oline is important for what every coach wants to do. The good ones find a way to minimize that weakness when it is one. Can anyone point to me one thing we did to minimize it? How much misdirection did we run? How many screens to our backs did we run? How many draws we run? If you can count more than 15 of each over the course of the season I'd be shocked. I've watched every single game live this year and then rewinded and watched again. It'll be interesting to see what happens next year. We'll revisit.
And find another excuse. The numbers I posted above are only when Grier started, so it has nothing to do with Treon. And they sucked then to. If you take out the Ole Miss game where we were almost 60% on 3rd downs, we hovered in the 20's percentage wise on 3rd downs...with Grier. But apparently Treon is so powerful he can make the offense suck from the bench. Like I've been saying...one good game against a legit opponent. Let me know what other numbers y'all want to look at.
Well to be realistic, ECU was in the game because of a few fluke plays and turnovers like the one where Chris Thompson or whoever it was completely embarrassed himself by not only dropping a 4 yard drag but handing it to ECU inside our own territory, the game was never really in doubt even with them driving late. We were up by 14 and it should have been more without the breaks they got. UK for the last two years has been a lot better early in the season especially with their depth issues and drop off hardcore later in the season because of it. It was one of their biggest home games at night and our freshmen QB's first road game, we also messed up in the red zone about 3 times with kicking as usual and could have put them down early in the first half. Treon single handedly put FAU back in the game with not only turning the ball over but one that gave them a TD directly from about as bonehead a play as possible, then the lob INT in the endzone into double coverage when our defense gave him the ball inside like their 30. Vandy he was as bad as any other game but we had some Ole Miss 08 type turnovers and awful calls that went their way to keep it close. UT basically was playing prevent against us because their DC said those were the looks that gave Grier trouble leading up to that.
We weren't as good or as bad as we looked until treon was handling the snaps and coaching DID have a good deal to do with us winning 10 games because of the confidence they gave our players and the style of football we played. Mcelwain understands how to win with what he has and he already did it in year one. There's not much for us to complain about with him right now, no matter how we want to look at numbers. Treon is just flat out REALLY bad at playing QB.
Agree with all that, what I'm saying though is even with our limitations we should have been a better offense than what we showed in the first half of the season. The second half of the season we had the backup and a lot of injuries so whatever, won't hold it against them. But other than Grier's pure talent, I saw little to be excited about at the beginning of the season. Once teams got tape on what we wanted to do we just looked bad or 'meh' until Ole Miss. Then we exploded and looked like we were about to turn the corner and then the next week the same ole same ole.
More than all that though I just don't think Nuss is good. I've gone back and watched every single game. Almost no misdirection, no screens except the WR screen we predictably call, no draws no nothing. Thos are basic constraint plays you call to help a struggling line and yet none. Let's line up and run straight ahead and utilize a drop back passing game with a collapsing line, brilliant! You impressed with this dude?
More than all that though I just don't think Nuss is good. I've gone back and watched every single game. Almost no misdirection, no screens except the WR screen we predictably call, no draws no nothing. Thos are basic constraint plays you call to help a struggling line and yet none. Let's line up and run straight ahead and utilize a drop back passing game with a collapsing line, brilliant! You impressed with this dude?
Not saying Griet was Montana or anything, but sadgator thinks we all can agree that his decision making was light years ahead of Harris. It is not even proper for debate that his numbers would have been vastly better as the season went along if he had played.
That said, sadgator does share your concern that there were not more adjustments to get the offense going once Grier was out. Also that Mac apparently couldn't "coach up" Treon beyond his obvious limitations.
sasgator hopes that is more an indictment of Harris than of anything else.
That said, sadgator does share your concern that there were not more adjustments to get the offense going once Grier was out. Also that Mac apparently couldn't "coach up" Treon beyond his obvious limitations.
sasgator hopes that is more an indictment of Harris than of anything else.
Ive never been impressed with Nuss but as an offensive coach and with experience calling plays even at a minimum.. I know that with what we had issues with, up front that right there causes many things to be checked out of a play calling sheet, young QB's, unproven talent at WR and RB besides Taylor. I mean yea we should have done some more things but we already knew Nuss was conservative but I also believe it has something to do with playing simple and not turning the ball over because of the top flight defense we had. Seeing as our defense won't be as good we will have to open it up even with a young QB next year more..
But when you have no running game, getting whipped up front, keeping yourself behind the chains.. There's not much you can do to get a rhythm for a young QB much less as a play caller, it puts you behind the call sheet too often. The biggest difference I remember this year when comparing Grier and Treon is we were playing ahead of the chains a lot more throwing on first downs and being set up with 2nd and 3rd and shorts. The last portion of the season we were just STUCK in 3rd and longs because of first downs failing miserably, and as time went on it just got worse. The Bama game and FSU for instance, those few throws treon missed early to guys wide open can COMPLETELY change the outcome of your offense and calls for the rest of a half and even a full game. Guys like Saban harp on perfection because those little plays in football if not executed when open will get you BEAT. The game is not long enough and you don't get enough opportunities to make up for them, especially in our situation with a young bad OL. Then you go back directly to having 2nd and 10 with those missed throws instead of an explosive play, big chunk yardage or even a TD in some cases with the throws he missed. I counted 4 TD's Treon missed in the last two games, with our defense.... Those are just flat out critical plays to be had. Just think if Treon had hit even just that one ball to Goolsby in the Bama game where he is running free and we end up scoring that drive. Look how the game ended, we could have been RIGHT there with Bama.. and people usually say well that's one play and the game could have played out differently, nah we went down 29-7 because of that play having to punt again and put the defense right back out there when it was finally nut cutting time with them being fatigued.
First down was much more successful when Grier was playing we were hitting those short TE passes in the flats and some quick hitters to Mcgee. We were missing that with Treon, but we should have run him more on first downs with read options, but even then he wasn't reading those right either. It was a lot like driskel in that way for him, he just doesn't understand what's going on out there and it's moving too fast for his head, then he expects everything to break down and just panics taking off to no avail. People can say what they want but in my honest opinion, had we had Grier out there playing by that point and getting more important reps week to week and experience, I say there's no reason to think it's silly that we could have beaten bama or made it a really scary game for them in that Dome, and hell I think with him we beat FSU too. Some might think im going overboard but you do have to step back and think... in year one with that elite defense we had.. and a QB growing like Grier would have been.. we could have very well been in the playoff and it's not far fetched. That's just how important QB play is in this sport and especially at the college level playing against the best defensive units and game plans from opposing DC's year to year.
I want to see what happens when Mac gets his guys and how the play calling changes from when everything is suited to do what it's supposed to with all moving parts. Go look at his offenses with Bama and what he did last year with CSU, I believe we will be there and it won't be Nuss getting in the way of it when it's time. Remember two years ago when CSU was in that shoot out in one of those Nevada bowl games? That was some good offensive play calling and setting up in the passing game off PA and a down hill run game. That offense is what will happen here, whether it takes another year to get it, I know it will happen. I've seen him do it with the best and with mediocre talent, turning decent QB's into draft picks and unknown WR's into record breakers. You can already see it with young guys like Callaway and Powell, and with these other young top notch WR's coming in this class. I can totally see it happening once the OL gets better and we settle a QB in that can MENTALLY take in the playbook and wing it out there.
No question we had some good luck on our side. But we had some bad luck too.
There really is only one explanation for the unexpected turnaround this year; coaching.
Yes. But also an incredible amount of luck. And his performance in 2012 has to be taken in the context of a four year career.
Just as McE's one year here will have to be taken in the context of subsequent years, as well has his previous two years a CSU
This isn't a Grier vs. Harris debate. Your point that Grier is light years ahead of Harris in decision making is even more of an indictment on the performance of the offense. Why couldn't we get more out of the offense with Grier playing then? And I do think it's up for debate as to how good our overall numbers would have been. Would have been better sure, but not much better IMO. At least not to the level I've heard people on here talk about with the undefeated and playoff talk. I think y'all underestimate how bad the defenses that we played early in the season were. Against the two best pass defenses we played during Grier's stretch of games starting ( and the only two pass defenses in the top 50) he had 1 TD/1 INT.
It's not about Grier being Tom Brady, it's about him doing enough to sustain our defense and with the one we had it's not crazy to think we could have only had one loss and beaten Bama with their bad offense in Atlanta.. Which would have put us in the playoff most likely
See and I don't think they did enough to help Grier either. And said as much in the early game threads. UT is a perfect example. They teed off on us with the blitz for 3 quarters and we just had running straight drop backs and taking a beating with no adjustment. I don't remember a single quick hitter until the 4th. What's worse is UT had the exact same game plan the week before and no adjustment.
What I'm getting at is we have systematic problems. Quote me on it. You all will be here next year saying the same things.
What I'm getting at is we have systematic problems. Quote me on it. You all will be here next year saying the same things.
Listen Muschamps offense sucked all 4 years he was our head coach. Every single year it held us back it wasn't like our offense only stunk for a 1 or 2 years of his tenure here. You really can't compare Muschamps 4th year offense against McElwain's 1st year offense. If McElwains offense is still pitiful after year #3 then we have a problem that we can talk about.
I would also like to point out that Muschamp acted as if nothing was ever wrong with the offense and this was all a part of his plan to win. McElwain has stated in many PCs about the deficiencies in the offense. He clearly isnt satisfied, whereas Muschamp thought everything was ok.
I would also like to point out that Muschamp acted as if nothing was ever wrong with the offense and this was all a part of his plan to win. McElwain has stated in many PCs about the deficiencies in the offense. He clearly isnt satisfied, whereas Muschamp thought everything was ok.
Yes but the light switch came on for Grier after the 3rd quarter in the UT game. Then there was Ole Piss. How much more did you need to see how much improvement there was in 5 quarters of play compared to previous? Missouri, for all their warts had a good defense and Grier managed a good game on the road there are well........even with a crap offensive line?
Why can't you? Ordinarily you couldn't because by year 4 coaches generally have more talent in place than they inherited and are in the 4th year under a system. That wasn't the case for Muschamp, the offensive talent got worse year after year and were in a brand new offense that year. By year 4 he had 3 scholarship backs on the roster and was relying on a true freshman QB for example. And as I've said twice already the situations are exactly analogous. We were in year one of a new offense with players ill-suited for that offense. Just like we are now year 1 under Mac with players recruited for a completely different system. The situations are exactly the same. It's not as if Muschamp was in year 4 under the same offense. We were basically learning a new offense every year, including his last year.
I've already mentioned the Ole Miss game as being a good offensive game. And even that needs to be put into context. Ole Miss is 100th in the country in pass yards allowed. They get lit up passing by any and everybody. In other words, it was fools gold. The two best pass defenses we played during the stretch of games Grier started were Mizzou and UK at 7 and 31. In those two games we averaged 160 passing yards per game and had ZERO passing TD's with 1 INT. Again, pedestrian at best. There is literally nothing that backs up the opinions people have about how the offense was supposedly performing.
I disagree. You just can't compare a guy with his 4th year offense vs a guy with his 1st year offense. Muschamps offense sucked all 4 years. He never put a good offense on the field. McElewain and staff get more than 1 year to improve the offense unless you thought it was just gonna happen overnight with the players that were left behind. We only had 6 olineman going into this season. McElwain should get a ton of credit for bringing in some bodies so we could at least line up in play. Why do I have this feeling that if Muschamp was still our coach this past year we still wouldn't even have enough olinemen to field a team. His roster management was that bad on the offensive side of the ball.
What was wrong with the offense in the Mizzou game? It was fine. That game was a night game on the road against a very good defense coming off a big game against Ole Miss where your due for a letdown. We scored on the opening drive on a 75 yard TD drive to take a 7-0 lead. That was basically ball game against that Mizzou offense. The last 3 games of Grier starting against UT, Ole Miss and then Mizzou the offense was starting to come together and was showing improvement. That ended when Grier got suspended.
Last season was very similar to that season.
One of the biggest commonalities between the two seasons is that the defense produced a lot of turnovers providing the offense with a short field. The offense rarely had to go the length of the field. When it did go the length of the field it was almost always because of a big play.
Florida fans (and it's completely understandable because they're fans) don't want to admit the similarities because to so do means the team's savior may still be years away from arriving.
So the game plan is ignore what you don't like and shout-down the naysayers.
Complete and total revisionism.
No one is stupid enough to believe that crap. Why do you keep saying it?
No coach wants to win 10-7 nail biters. Their livelihood is on the line for goodness sake. This ain't the days of the Ten Year War between Hayes and Schembechler.
Fans continually demonstrate they're some of the biggest morons on the planet. They devise the most irrational, idiotic explanations to avoid having to say, "We're not attracting good enough football players so that we can win games." They come up with all sorts of conspiracy theories to avoid having to admit, "Right now our school isn't the cat's meow with the fickle 17 and 18 year old players that we need to win."
The amount of self-delusion of adults trying to live vicariously through the exploits of kids is massive. If it weren't so pathetic then it'd be highly entertaining.
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Except the statistics say otherwise about last year.
It was one of the most efficient offenses in the nation.
It couldn't go the length of the field. It couldn't sustain drives.
Why?
Poor quarterback play.
Oh my. Where have we see that?
This is a straw man. Of course Mac gets more than 1 year to improve the offense and no one expected it to happen overnight. This is about commonalities in performance.
Last year we played half the season with a bad true freshman QB and another QB who was mentally shot and were in year 1 installing an offense with players ill-suited for the system we were installing. That is almost exactly like this year with Mac who is also in year 1 installing an offense with players ill-suited for the system he's installing and playing with bad QB's for half the year. And yet Muschamp's dumpster fire of an offense outperformed this years, even if we just focus on the games Grier started. And we played better defenses a year ago. How is that not more concerning for more people? A lot of posters here have deluded themselves into thinking it was all Harris when the stats clearly show we were pedestrian at best even with Grier.
I'd like to see people put pen to paper so to speak and outline exactly what they expect from the offense next year so we all have something to refer back to when we change the QB and still have some of the same glaring issues. I wonder what the reason will be then.
Now wait a minute. That was Muschamp's fault.
You and Ghost (and a few FSU fans) seem to be the only people making this argument.
While you live 'one step removed' from their supposed vicarious living....
Nearly fell outta my chair LMAO at this DWEEB's BS...
Promise I'm not even close to the only one. What are your expectations for next years offense?
I wouldn't expect many direct answers here. Everyone is going to want to be Paco so they can't later get nailed down on their positions. It's the nature of message boards.
Really not trying to play a gotcha game. The meme is that one player is the problem and that one player will be replaced come this time next year. We'll have a more experienced line, a better QB, better depth, year 2 in the system, etc. so we should see a big jump. I'd expect that to be most people's position. They almost have to feel that way. And if they don't, I'd like to hear why.
Did anyone expect to have a good offense this year? Let's see there are new coaches, new qb, and a patchwork oline and someone expected us to win a championship? Last years oline was at least big enough and D1 level to at least give us a chance in games. I mean the fact that the coach was still searching for oline men before the summer practices mean nothing? Was the play calling the greatest but if someone can't grasp the basics you all want to pull trick plays and more difficult formations and expect success? Honestly, I was just so happy to see the offense actually perform and look like an offense where the team was moving forward which it was even more difficult to do at times last year. I don't know how great the new coaches are but I really believe we would have won more games with the offensive line that had several nfl draft picks. This line,who do you thinks going to be drafted, halter, a guy we took from fordham, really?
Strawman alert! So now expecting the offense to not be as putrid as what Muschamp produces is equal to expecting championships or a great offense? Ok.
I find it odd that nobody is willing to put out there what they expect from the offense next year. Telling.
I find it odd that nobody is willing to put out there what they expect from the offense next year. Telling.
Before the season the meme was 'this offense will be better by default, no Muschamp!' Then when that doesn't happen anyone who questions it is looked at as if they're crazy. Then you get ridiculous responses like 'well what did you expect? A championship?' Or 'no one expected ha to be better than last years offense (which is just dishonest as hell)' or 'buuuuut Treon!'
What I've learned is people are ok with sucking as long as it's THEIR guys doing the sucking. Their preferred QB and the coach they can't criticize as of yet. Otherwise they'd have to come to the realization that blames lies more than one place. Some of y'all are a joke. It's hilarious to me that for all this talk about how one player is the problem with the offense or how much improved we'll be next year, no one has been willing to put out there what they expect from the offense next year or why. Just generalities like 'we'll be improved.' Great conviction. If some of y'alls track record is any indication of your dishonesty I completely understand why.
What I've learned is people are ok with sucking as long as it's THEIR guys doing the sucking. Their preferred QB and the coach they can't criticize as of yet. Otherwise they'd have to come to the realization that blames lies more than one place. Some of y'all are a joke. It's hilarious to me that for all this talk about how one player is the problem with the offense or how much improved we'll be next year, no one has been willing to put out there what they expect from the offense next year or why. Just generalities like 'we'll be improved.' Great conviction. If some of y'alls track record is any indication of your dishonesty I completely understand why.
Oozie, not sure why you think people see this as one player. We lost 4 starting offensive lineman and we had a first year quarterback. The numbers might not have looked much different but if you couldn't see a difference in our offense when Grier was QB then it's hard to take your judgement seriously. At times we had 3 true freshmen on the line. We were using our tight ends and throwing the ball downfield. I have no idea what the future holds but I am pretty confident that over time our offense will improve. If we here four years later, as with Muschamp, and still no improvement then I will be wrong. Just don't see that happening.
Describe the difference. Put it into words.
Don't write "Because."
Can you put it into words?
I have my doubts.
You don't read the game threads around here apparently. And I know about the oline issues, but according to a few of the geniuses on this board it's the QB making them look as bad as they do. When our right tackle gets put on his ass by a true freshman defensive back...it's the QB. Same when a team like Vandy pushes our center 5 yards into the backfield on a run play. It's the QB.
As to how the offense 'looked' that's the only thing that changed. No one is arguing that. We had a purpose to our play calling, their was logic in what we were doing, we tried to set up plays, etc. We didn't just line up and try to outmuscle people. That's not the discussion though, the discussion is about the results. How much it changed aesthetically is irrelevant if the results don't follow. And even with Grier we performed worse than Muschamp's offense against worse competition to boot.
I expect the offense to be much improved next year. This year, it was about what I expected. Our O-line was the worst I can remember. With Grier the offense was bad, with Treon the offense was horrible. Grier was making progress and I thought doing ok for somebody seeing their first action. And stop all this comparing crap to Muschamp's "offense". Different players, different schedule, etc. The only thing you need to know about champ is that he makes Doug Dickey look like a head coaching guru.
