I agree with your last sentence, but not your first. The reason I responded and complimented your post as it seems pretty clear from this small sample that you are trying to find the truth, which is what I value. A lot of folks are bringing pre-conceived beliefs and a personal agenda and are trying to promote those beliefs and have no real interest in getting to the truth. You can see that in post after post. Which results in massive amount of misinformation which has been one of our biggest problems with this thing from the beginning.
Proprietary COVID-19 and Vaccine thread
- Thread starter FresnoGator
- Start date
Reading between the lines.
1.) in a highly vaxxed country say 95% it obvious that the vaccinated will make up the bulk of new cases. This does not prove that being unvaxxed is better than vaxxed at prevention.
2.)Natural immunity according to the majority of the studies is vastly superior to vaccination.
3.) according to article above from Attkisson COVID survivors do not necessarily have detectable anti-bodies. But currently in one study shown they account for 1% of all current infections. 39% are vaxxed and 60% unvaxxed in that study. So re-infection is very rare.
So my theory about natural immunity being ignored is multi faceted.
Since anti-bodies are not always detectable how do you exempt covid survivors who do not test for them. Do you give a blank check to everyone who ever tested positive. The public and survivors probably say yes. Docs and Scientist probably say no even though re-infections are 1% of cases.
If you can not categorize it and put it in a box bureaucrats can not control it...they will be opposed.
Then there are leftist pols...for them this is a trojan horse to gain unlimited power. If they can force vaxxes they can force anything going forward. There can be NO exemptions for any reason. We see this in their response and actions.
1.) in a highly vaxxed country say 95% it obvious that the vaccinated will make up the bulk of new cases. This does not prove that being unvaxxed is better than vaxxed at prevention.
2.)Natural immunity according to the majority of the studies is vastly superior to vaccination.
3.) according to article above from Attkisson COVID survivors do not necessarily have detectable anti-bodies. But currently in one study shown they account for 1% of all current infections. 39% are vaxxed and 60% unvaxxed in that study. So re-infection is very rare.
So my theory about natural immunity being ignored is multi faceted.
Since anti-bodies are not always detectable how do you exempt covid survivors who do not test for them. Do you give a blank check to everyone who ever tested positive. The public and survivors probably say yes. Docs and Scientist probably say no even though re-infections are 1% of cases.
If you can not categorize it and put it in a box bureaucrats can not control it...they will be opposed.
Then there are leftist pols...for them this is a trojan horse to gain unlimited power. If they can force vaxxes they can force anything going forward. There can be NO exemptions for any reason. We see this in their response and actions.
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He clearly stated his position: Let's get everyone 'vaccinated' and get this behind us.
IOW, let's all take the shot that is killing people every day, then this will be 'behind us'.
Plus they are militant about staying indoors and avoiding going outside.81% of NY has had at least one shot.
Today they set a single day case record.
Tell me the story about how safe and effective these vaccines are. That’s such a nice story.
New York reports highest number of COVID-19 cases as omicron looms
Officials worked to shore up testing and healthcare capacity, as new COVID-19 infections hit a daily record in New York state and the Omicron variant added...www.marketwatch.com
Which is about the worst thing you could do. Assuming the goal is to STOP covid. If you want to make it worse, self-isolation is the way to go.
I love the smell of projection in the morning. You are trying to spin that the shots are safe, and anyone not getting them is taking such an unnecessary risk that hospitals shouldn't treat them if they catch covid.
The irony is, there is mounting daily evidence that suggests that taking the shots is quite a greater risk than not taking them and getting covid.
Seems you fell for the misinformation. So much so that you decided to risk your very health on it.
Good luck.
NavII - a similar "mandate" is employers forcing employees to come back in the office when they have been exceptionally productive for almost 2 years working virtually. The NYC Governor asked for employees and employers to do this in order to stimulate the NYC economy - even though it means far higher carbon emissions (which she decries as she asks for emergency funding due to flooding), higher out of pocket spend on gas and dry cleaning, etc.
If we want to stop the spread, allow people to continue to work virtually (if their profession allows it) and save gas, carbon and, in this thread, slow the spread. When me and my teams work from home, odds of catching or spread fall to nearly zero.
If we want to stop the spread, allow people to continue to work virtually (if their profession allows it) and save gas, carbon and, in this thread, slow the spread. When me and my teams work from home, odds of catching or spread fall to nearly zero.
DC, to your points:
1. Hospitalizations and Deaths are all that matter at this point.
2. Natural immunity is a powerful too, in the tool box, but, like the vaccines, it wanes.
Finally, my concern is exactly as yours is: when does it stop? Fauci today said that masks will be a "fovever requirement" on airlines. To many, statements like that and others make it appear that he is drunk with power.
Working from home and staying isolated there every day doesn't slow the spread. It actually makes it worse.
Remote working has a lot of benefits. You've hit on one of the key problems with it.
It continues to stun me that supposed intelligent people cannot be intelligent or objective when it comes to covid and these shots as treatment.
These shots are not completely safe. They may not be safe at all. So if your starting point for this topic is that the shots are completely safe and effective, then you could not be more wrong on both counts.
Taking the shots is risky. Not taking the shots is risky. The risk varies greatly based on each person's individual health and environment.
But it's a complete untruth to say that the shots are safe and effective. If you say that then you are either lying to yourself, or us.
These shots are not completely safe. They may not be safe at all. So if your starting point for this topic is that the shots are completely safe and effective, then you could not be more wrong on both counts.
Taking the shots is risky. Not taking the shots is risky. The risk varies greatly based on each person's individual health and environment.
But it's a complete untruth to say that the shots are safe and effective. If you say that then you are either lying to yourself, or us.
They found survivors of the 1918 flu still had immunity in 2007. SARS 1 survivors have immunity today 17 years later. I would hold off on proclaiming that natural immunity is waning as anti-bodies are not the only measure.
"All six previously known coronaviruses spark production of both antibodies and memory T cells. In addition, studies of immunity to SARS-CoV-1 have shown that T cells stick around for many years longer than acquired antibodies. So, Bertoletti’s team set out to gain a better understanding of T cell immunity against the novel coronavirus.
The researchers gathered blood samples from 36 people who’d recently recovered from mild to severe COVID-19. They focused their attention on T cells (including CD4 helper and CD8 cytotoxic, both of which can function as memory T cells). They identified T cells that respond to the SARS-CoV-2 nucleocapsid, which is a structural protein inside the virus. They also detected T cell responses to two non-structural proteins that SARS-CoV-2 needs to make additional copies of its genome and spread. The team found that all those recently recovered from COVID-19 produced T cells that recognize multiple parts of SARS-CoV-2.
Next, they looked at blood samples from 23 people who’d survived SARS. Their studies showed that those individuals still had lasting memory T cells today, 17 years after the outbreak. Those memory T cells, acquired in response to SARS-CoV-1, also recognized parts of SARS-CoV-2." -
Immune T Cells May Offer Lasting Protection Against COVID-19
Much of the study on the immune response to SARS-CoV-2, the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19, has focused on the production of antibodies. But, in fact, immune cells known as memory T cells a…
directorsblog.nih.gov
I have a novel solution! Lets treat this almost like the flu. Vax if you want. Boost if you want. No mandates. No passports. And most importantly no quarantines. Why, because that drives the testing, pre-work questionnaires and the disruptions.
Temp people and send them home until they can clear. Sick people should not be at work. Send them home with pay. No need for Dr excuses or need to know what the illness is unless it lasts more than 3 days.
The difference I would make is to figure out how the Europeans do the CHEAP (like $5 a test) at home testing and let people do that in the privacy of their home right before they visit a vulnerable, elderly or libtard relative.
So rare they had to stop administering the vaccine?
Solid argument.
edit: and we now know the vaccines don’t stop you from acquiring Covid…so this argument falls apart even more…
edit2: And the statement comes from a non-peer reviewed US study…rock solid
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@GhostOfMatchesMalone is this about Covid?
thenationalpulse.com
New York Legislation Provides for Indefinite Detention of Unvaccinated at Governor's Whim. - The National Pulse
In the next legislative session beginning January 5th, 2022, the New York Senate and Assembly could vote on a bill that would grant permissions to remove and detain cases, contacts, carriers, or anyone suspected of presenting a “significant threat to public health” and remove them from public...
thenationalpulse.com
The hell of it is, if that had been the approach all along, I honestly think it would have led to MORE people being vaccinated.
Once they establish that they can remove someone from the public because they are a 'health risk' then it's over.@GhostOfMatchesMalone is this about Covid?
New York Legislation Provides for Indefinite Detention of Unvaccinated at Governor's Whim. - The National Pulse
In the next legislative session beginning January 5th, 2022, the New York Senate and Assembly could vote on a bill that would grant permissions to remove and detain cases, contacts, carriers, or anyone suspected of presenting a “significant threat to public health” and remove them from public...
Then, all they have to do is claim the people they want out of the public are 'health risks' and remove them.
Remind anyone else of nazi Germany? Has anyone noticed how the dems have been desperately trying to rebrand fascism as being on the right instead of the left in recent years?
What's that saying, the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing (some) men that it didn't exist?
That is profoundly un-american and scary. This could the same person who, per a progressive AG, sexually assaulted women, put Covid-19 elderly back into Nursing homes and then tried to get a $5M advance for writing a book on leadership.@GhostOfMatchesMalone is this about Covid?
New York Legislation Provides for Indefinite Detention of Unvaccinated at Governor's Whim. - The National Pulse
In the next legislative session beginning January 5th, 2022, the New York Senate and Assembly could vote on a bill that would grant permissions to remove and detain cases, contacts, carriers, or anyone suspected of presenting a “significant threat to public health” and remove them from public...
Assuming this is accurate, this is Ben Shapiro's "authoritarian moment" coming to life.
It’s accurate. This is the democrat party, and it’s terrifying.
Omicron is so terrifying SA isn’t even contact tracing or quarantining anymore.
But here we’re ramping up the mandates and imprisonment for being a “public health risk” over it.
www.news24.com
But here we’re ramping up the mandates and imprisonment for being a “public health risk” over it.
Covid-19: Stop tracing and quarantining of contacts, says Ministerial Advisory Committee | News24
The Covid-19 Ministerial Advisory Committee has asked government to do away with tracing and quarantining of contacts.
So intelligent people are supposed to ignore the advice of thousands of experts around the world who have studied this stuff most of their lives and instead scavenge the internet for nuggets of wisdom like yours? Ya...….no thanks, I think I will pass on the random internet dude who tries to convince us all how smart he is and how he knows more than the worlds top medical people. Nothing is certain in the world and medical treatment like this is mostly about playing the best odds...…….and the odds of you being the one that's ultimately wrong are extremely high in this case.
Besides, the decision never revolved around the vaccine being "completely safe". Its only a matter of the vaccine being more safe than getting and dealing with covid without the vaccine. Trying to scare people because taking a vaccine is not 100% is just silly.....because that should never be the question to begin with. Everybody knows the vaccine can't be perfect and was never expected to be. But its the right thing to do if its the better alternative...….nobody wants to take the vaccine but its the lessor of two evils.
I have had covid and it was the worst illness of my life ( FYI, I have no other medical issues). My 25 year old son had it bad for a week. I would take another vaccine in a New York minute to help avoid getting seriously ill from that shit. The odds of the vaccine being worse for me are miniscule based on real medical people giving me their advice.
NY State Assembly Bill 2021-A416
Relates to the removal of cases, contacts and carriers of communicable diseases that are potentially dangerous to the public health.
That's actually not totally 100% accurate. If Covid did something positive, it proved working remotely is a better option for many business models. Many, many businesses, particularly in the financial world are never going "back to the office". Better quality of life for employees by avoiding stupid commutes and wasted time in traffic, less expense for commuting travel, less cost for employers by eliminating expensive brick and mortar overhead. (I'm not sorry one bit these places are losing their real estate tax base). Some are never going back to the traditional business model. Pardon me but I'm completely out of fuks to give about NYC's economy. These blue states have crapped their beds and now need to sleep in them. Enact stupid policies, suffer the consequences.
So we agree that working remotely is a win win in many cases and mandates of any kind are NOT an American concept. These blue states cried wolf and now have to deal with their own stupidity.
I dont see any way I would vax my son up to this point regardless of the past.
I would have him vaxxed by now if there was an attenuated or inactivated vax available here. Like India's Covaxin
Abstracts discussing these 2 traditional types of vaxxes:
Should the world collaborate imminently to develop neglected live-attenuated vaccines for COVID-19? - PubMed
The rapid spread of the Delta variant suggests that SARS-CoV-2 will likely be rampant for months or years and could claim millions of more lives. All the known vaccines cannot well defeat SARS-CoV-2 due to their limited efficacy and production efficiency, except for the neglected live-attenuated...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Could live attenuated vaccines better control COVID-19? - PubMed
In an effort to control the COVID-19 pandemic, large-scale vaccination is being implemented in various countries using anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccines based on mRNAs, adenovirus vectors, and inactivated viruses. However, there are concerns regarding adverse effects, such as the induction of fever...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
You can get as many jabs as you like. That's not what this is about. Your rights end when you start dictating what my choices are. It's not your call, and it's not the .Govs.
You have it wrong my friend, I am not in favor of telling you what to do. I am, however, in favor of people accepting the consequences of their actions.
The fact you’ve had Covid and recovered and are still excited to take more vaccine tells me all need to know.
Intelligent people can think for themselves and ask questions instead of blindly following beaurocrats and “experts”.
You can start by asking yourself some questions. How were we originally told the vaccines would work? What are we told now?
President A had no vaccine and was blamed for every death. In the same amount of time President B, with the help of 3 vaccines, lost more people despite high levels of vaccination.
Why are we vaccinating kids? How many kids ages 0-17 have been lost to Covid?
How many spike proteins does an mRNA vaccine make your body create? Where do they go? What happens if you get an accumulation in a key organ (like your heart)?
Those are just 3-4 questions that intelligent people can ask themselves. As you look into these answers it may dawn on you that asking questions and thinking critically is a worthwhile effort.
Or you can just listen to “the experts” and blindly do whatever they say. It’s your life.
You are?
So going back to my original question - I need to know who else we deny healthcare to:
- Drug addicts?
- Alcoholics?
- Fat people?
- People who ride motorcycles?
- People who don’t wear seatbelts?
- Smokers?
- People with uncontrolled Diabetes or Hypertension?
All of these are very dangerous and avoidable. In fact most of these are more dangerous than a healthy person getting Covid.
Red state gubs and legislatures need to work on amendments to state constitutions to prevent this from happening in their states. We know things ebb and flow so someday a red state may have a dem gub or legislature. Mechanisms need to be put into place to prevent such future power grabs.
In fact red states should be proactive in thwarting blue action when out of power. Put in amendments that require super majorities to modify.
One thing that SCOTUS shot down but that should be revisited now that we have constitutionalist on the court is to create Senates based on counties. Such Senates would trend toward conservative and thwart cities from passing laws detrimental to rural areas. Of course there would need to be a minimum geographic size to counties or libs would break cities into a thousand counties just to seize power.
The goal is to minimize the scope of government at all levels.
So if you inject a potentially fatal substance into your bloodstream, then develop medical issues and go to the hospital, should the hospital be forced to treat you?
Or what if I didn't inject that potentially deadly substance in my arm and I get sick. Should the doctor be forced to treat me first?
I mean, your actions also have consequences, right?
consequences or coercion?
Consequences would be sickness, hospitalization and possibly death.
Coercion would be passports, restrictions on normal activities based on status and denial of critical services such as healthcare based on refusal to vaccinate.
Coercion that violates rights or discriminates should never be allowed in a free society.
The consequences don't involve either the government nor businesses mandating injecting a foreign substance with side effects and are either unproven and EUA'd or fast tracked..........or else be terminated. How odd that Big Pharma has complete immunity and the FDA won't release freedom of information requests for another 55 years.
Wait what? FDA wants 55 years to process FOIA request over vaccine data
Freedom of Information Act requests are rarely speedy, but when a group of scientists asked the federal government to share the data it relied upon in licensing Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine, the response went beyond typical bureaucratic foot-dragging.
It's so scary to think that people like this guy are allowed to walk the streets. I think they are dangerous to the health of the public and should be removed.
Say.....kinda like that thing you talked about in NY!
Your logic is so profoundly weak I just can't justify the wasting of time to answer this right now.
I will come back later when I have some free time and answer each and every one of these. Although I suspect it will do no good.
I will also answer your question about not allowing fat people and addicts into the hospitals...….another apples and oranges argument that doesn't apply at all, which is why I didn't address it the first time.
While the trolls fail to address truth and reality that doesn't agree with their own agendas....
FLCCC.com
Funny that a third world sh*thole has a better grasp on policy than we do. Quarantines, if you have one, should be restricted to the sick.Omicron is so terrifying SA isn’t even contact tracing or quarantining anymore.
But here we’re ramping up the mandates and imprisonment for being a “public health risk” over it.
Covid-19: Stop tracing and quarantining of contacts, says Ministerial Advisory Committee | News24
The Covid-19 Ministerial Advisory Committee has asked government to do away with tracing and quarantining of contacts.
The newly emerged corona virus disease 2019 (COVID-19) has spread to all over the world, with recent estimates of more than 236 million cases diagnosed and led to 4.8 million deaths as November 20211 .Therapeutic approaches are needed to improve outcomes in patients with COVID-19 since no antiviral agent has yet been proved to be conclusively beneficial in COVID-19 infection, especially in patients with mild to moderate degree of severity.
There has been growing interest in the anti-parasitic drug,ivermectin, which previously was studied as an antiviral, anti-inflammatory and anti-cancer actions2 .It was also reported to have an in-vitro activity against SARS-CoV-23 .Its antiviral properties was due to the action on importin 2/1 mediated nuclear transport. Ivermectin prevents the binding of viral proteins to importin 2/1 rendering the viral proteins unable to enter the nucleus and cause infection4.
Several clinical studies have found a beneficial effect of ivermectin in COVID-195-9 However, some study did not find significant difference between the patient group receiving ivermectin and control group10 .Until now, the controlled trials evaluating ivermectin in COVID-19 are lacking. Ivermectin is safe, with reported side effect of less than 1%. Hence it is essential to conduct a clinical trial with ivermectin in patients with COVID-19 .The objective of this study is to establish the efficacy of ivermectin for COVID-19 patients with mild to moderate disease, compare to usual case alone.
clinicaltrials.gov
There has been growing interest in the anti-parasitic drug,ivermectin, which previously was studied as an antiviral, anti-inflammatory and anti-cancer actions2 .It was also reported to have an in-vitro activity against SARS-CoV-23 .Its antiviral properties was due to the action on importin 2/1 mediated nuclear transport. Ivermectin prevents the binding of viral proteins to importin 2/1 rendering the viral proteins unable to enter the nucleus and cause infection4.
Several clinical studies have found a beneficial effect of ivermectin in COVID-195-9 However, some study did not find significant difference between the patient group receiving ivermectin and control group10 .Until now, the controlled trials evaluating ivermectin in COVID-19 are lacking. Ivermectin is safe, with reported side effect of less than 1%. Hence it is essential to conduct a clinical trial with ivermectin in patients with COVID-19 .The objective of this study is to establish the efficacy of ivermectin for COVID-19 patients with mild to moderate disease, compare to usual case alone.
ClinicalTrials.gov
clinicaltrials.gov
Abundance of caution until they get more data.
What we do know is that being unvaccinated doesn’t stop the Rona. And has a much higher mortality rate.
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