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Proprietary COVID-19 and Vaccine thread

Twitter is where a lot of conspiracy theories and misinformation spreads. According to Thelwall et al. (2021):

"Anti-vaccine sentiment has been widely expressed on Twitter. Vaccine opposition on Twitter in the USA increased by 80% during the first four months of Covid-19 (starting from February 15, 2020) compared to the four months before, with tweets increasingly mentioning vaccine ingredients, trials and federal health authorities (Bonnevie et al., 2020)."

and

"For Covid-19, a content analysis of tweets mentioning 5G and the virus from a week up to 4 April 2020 found that a third were from conspiracy theory supporters (Ahmed et al., 2020)."
And clearly we see that on display every day on here from all these free thinkers like @GhostOfMatchesMalone and @jfegaly and @fatman76 and @kjfreeze Who are unwitting pawns ♟ to some of the very people and governments they claim to be against every day.
 
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That occurs in adolescent and young males at an extremely low probability, but not zero probability. Context is always helpful:

"myocarditis/pericarditis rates are ≈12.6 cases per million doses of second-dose mRNA vaccine among individuals 12 to 39 years of age."

and

"Almost all patients had resolution of symptoms and signs and improvement in diagnostic markers and imaging with or without treatment. Despite rare cases of myocarditis, the benefit-risk assessment for COVID-19 vaccination shows a favorable balance for all age and sex groups; therefore, COVID-19 vaccination is recommended for everyone ≥12 years of age"

Link to the research: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.121.056135
I actually had an 18-year-old die last year from Covid infection induced myocarditis and coronary vasculitis. One of the saddest things I ever had to do was talk to her dad after her death. She would likely be alive today and she live long enough to get a vaccine.
 
And clearly we see that on display every day on here from all these free thinkers like @GhostOfMatchesMalone and @jfegaly and @fatman76 and @kjfreeze Who are unwitting pawns ♟ to some of the very people and governments they claim to be against every day.
Definitely see the symptoms of it. If anyone is formulating their world views in such a way, my hope is that they, at least initially, start to incorporate opposing views in order to escape any echo chamber they are in. The individual has to be willing to challenge their own views, and that is psychologically painful for many.
 
Definitely see the symptoms of it. If anyone is formulating their world views in such a way, my hope is that they, at least initially, start to incorporate opposing views in order to escape any echo chamber they are in. The individual has to be willing to challenge their own views, and that is psychologically painful for many.
Absolutely. As a medical community we need to be able to be more open minded towards things like ivermectin pending good research. I make that argument all the time here at the hospital system I work at
 
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Thoughtful and enlightening. I certainly stand corrected.
I think it's hilarious how threatened he is by anyone who has actually done their research on covid. A man who claims he has mastered his craft should welcome discussion, not run away throwing memes back at it.

Sounds like he's been getting by by BSing people, but it's not working here.
 
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Definitely see the symptoms of it. If anyone is formulating their world views in such a way, my hope is that they, at least initially, start to incorporate opposing views in order to escape any echo chamber they are in. The individual has to be willing to challenge their own views, and that is psychologically painful for many.

Sorry. Needed to give this its very own…..😂😂😂
 
Who knew @jfegaly was a Panda……or is that @fatman76


tenor.gif
 
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Definitely see the symptoms of it. If anyone is formulating their world views in such a way, my hope is that they, at least initially, start to incorporate opposing views in order to escape any echo chamber they are in. The individual has to be willing to challenge their own views, and that is psychologically painful for many.
Funny how conservatives (Reagan definition not Trump populists) rarely have to do that. For example I got J&J and still do not fully trust the mRNA vaxxes. I think masks are useful in certain situations. I believe GW has occurred and is influenced by man but it is not a crisis and will not be a crisis. It definitely does not warrant the onerous "solutions" proposed by the left and has really stalled for better than a decade.

I support the Fair Tax and BSc would bring out metrics and other nonsense to say why he opposes it as if that was a way to debate me on the subject. I could care less. The Fair tax for me is about restoring freedom to the taxpayer and nothing more or less.

My worldview is that all laws are based on someones morality and in the case of America for me IMO it should be Christian in nature. Second the founders intended the individual to have their rights to life, liberty(not licentiousness) and property (original statement) protected. Any "collective" action was to be towards those ends. Their "collective" vision never included welfare, social security, wealth transfers, income taxes, worries over income inequalities etc.

You can fit a lot into those boxes and rarely have to change your views on things.
 
Funny how conservatives (Reagan definition not Trump populists) rarely have to do that. For example I got J&J and still do not fully trust the mRNA vaxxes. I think masks are useful in certain situations. I believe GW has occurred and is influenced by man but it is not a crisis and will not be a crisis. It definitely does not warrant the onerous "solutions" proposed by the left and has really stalled for better than a decade.

I support the Fair Tax and BSc would bring out metrics and other nonsense to say why he opposes it as if that was a way to debate me on the subject. I could care less. The Fair tax for me is about restoring freedom to the taxpayer and nothing more or less.

My worldview is that all laws are based on someones morality and in the case of America for me IMO it should be Christian in nature. Second the founders intended the individual to have their rights to life, liberty(not licentiousness) and property (original statement) protected. Any "collective" action was to be towards those ends. Their "collective" vision never included welfare, social security, wealth transfers, income taxes, worries over income inequalities etc.

You can fit a lot into those boxes and rarely have to change your views on things.
I respect that. I generally do not discuss politics online, as it seems to make things worse (everybody gets mad and it becomes a waste of time). But you are right, not all conservatives (or liberals) are the same, nor do they all represent the extreme political and social ideologies that often get associated with their views. Many liberals are for border control and many conservatives are pro-vaccination, for example. But when arguing political ideas, insults are often based upon the opposing views' extremes, and not so much the norms.
Politics aside, being a healthy skeptic, about vaccines or just in general, is a good and logical approach to life. Being a conspiracy theorist or paranoid is not.
 
That occurs in adolescent and young males at an extremely low probability, but not zero probability. Context is always helpful:

"myocarditis/pericarditis rates are ≈12.6 cases per million doses of second-dose mRNA vaccine among individuals 12 to 39 years of age."

and

"Almost all patients had resolution of symptoms and signs and improvement in diagnostic markers and imaging with or without treatment. Despite rare cases of myocarditis, the benefit-risk assessment for COVID-19 vaccination shows a favorable balance for all age and sex groups; therefore, COVID-19 vaccination is recommended for everyone ≥12 years of age"

Link to the research: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.121.056135
Once again...you can't on one hand tell me VAERS isn't valid for tracking deaths because the reporting is suspect and there's no causation investigated, and then use VAERS data to prove the vaccine is safe for young people.

It's either reliable data or it's not. I think we all agree it's not.
 
Once again...you can't on one hand tell me VAERS isn't valid for tracking deaths because the reporting is suspect and there's no causation investigated, and then use VAERS data to prove the vaccine is safe for young people.

It's either reliable data or it's not. I think we all agree it's not.
I haven't made any claims about VAERS.
But I don't think, in general, it's a dichotomy of reliable or not reliable. Some data are more reliable than others for various reasons. I'm not referring to VAERS specifically, but any database that gathers data from multiple sources on multiple variables will have differing rates of validity.
 
I think it's hilarious how threatened he is by anyone who has actually done their research on covid. A man who claims he has mastered his craft should welcome discussion, not run away throwing memes back at it.

Sounds like he's been getting by by BSing people, but it's not working here.
I'm done. Too many times he responds like a petulant 12 YO. Intellectual dishonesty is something I have a very short fuse for. Combined with the awful things he said about unvaxxed a few months ago (which he tried to claim was a troll), it was just time to move on.

I'm 2 hours into my first ignore on this site and the board is a much nicer place to be. @SORT14 will actually have a conversation and not throw up memes when I don't agree. Much better way to spend my time.
 
I haven't made any claims about VAERS.
But I don't think, in general, it's a dichotomy of reliable or not reliable. Some data are more reliable than others for various reasons. I'm not referring to VAERS specifically, but any database that gathers data from multiple sources on multiple variables will have differing rates of validity.
Not @'ing you, I'm talking about the CDC and other "studies" that are trying to push for vaxxing kids.

My point is if you want to make a point regarding vaxxing that group you need better data on the risks. Short term uses VAERS and long term isn't clear. I'm just not sold it's smart.
 
Not @'ing you, I'm talking about the CDC and other "studies" that are trying to push for vaxxing kids.

My point is if you want to make a point regarding vaxxing that group you need better data on the risks. Short term uses VAERS and long term isn't clear. I'm just not sold it's smart.
Understood. For my information, do you happen to have any of those studies (regarding kids)?
 
Once again...you can't on one hand tell me VAERS isn't valid for tracking deaths because the reporting is suspect and there's no causation investigated, and then use VAERS data to prove the vaccine is safe for young people.

It's either reliable data or it's not. I think we all agree it's not.
Actually what we said was the reporting is not suspect, what we said is you cannot draw an association through reporting. You use the reporting to decide what you need to study to see if there is an association.

They are two entirely different things.
 
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Understood. For my information, do you happen to have any of those studies (regarding kids)?
Main one that has my triggers is the CDC version 76 posted yesterday.

I went back and more carefully read the one you posted above and it's both citing deficiencies in VAERS reporting and also using that data for analysis. But the conclusion is the same:

"Given the known potential risk of complications with COVID-19 infection, including hospitalizations and death even in younger adults (mortality remains 0.1–1 per 100 000 for persons 12–29 years of age), the risk-benefit decision remains overwhelmingly favorable for vaccination."

My other issue is all of these reviews of the data/studies are only concerned with one possible side effect of the vaccine. Dig through the OpenVAERS link I sent and search by age. It's possible there are other side effects we need to know more about before we start putting shots in kids with a 99.9987% chance of survival from Covid - even adjusting for all of the other effects Covid can cause, I don't feel like the risk assessment is complete for both options...yet the conclusion still seems "clear".
 
Main one that has my triggers is the CDC version 76 posted yesterday.

I went back and more carefully read the one you posted above and it's both citing deficiencies in VAERS reporting and also using that data for analysis. But the conclusion is the same:

"Given the known potential risk of complications with COVID-19 infection, including hospitalizations and death even in younger adults (mortality remains 0.1–1 per 100 000 for persons 12–29 years of age), the risk-benefit decision remains overwhelmingly favorable for vaccination."

My other issue is all of these reviews of the data/studies are only concerned with one possible side effect of the vaccine. Dig through the OpenVAERS link I sent and search by age. It's possible there are other side effects we need to know more about before we start putting shots in kids with a 99.9987% chance of survival from Covid - even adjusting for all of the other effects Covid can cause, I don't feel like the risk assessment is complete for both options...yet the conclusion still seems "clear".
I work with large data sets ("big data"). Data are almost always and inevitably flawed. That is a reality of life in the research world. The presence of flaws alone is not enough to dismiss analyses that result from imperfect data sets. The severity of the flaws, if known, is what has to be considered. So it is certainly possible to reach an actionable conclusion even with imperfect data. Handling data flaws correctly is a highly technical skill and there are many sufficient approaches in doing so. Ultimately, though, if the data are just that bad, then it is what it is.

I will check out version 76

I agree that we should be concerned with side effects of the vaccine. I just think that, given the evidence, that COVID is by far a bigger concern. Like I've said in the past, having to decide between getting a vaccine and potentially getting COVID is a crappy position to be in (but it is an easy decision, at least for me).
 
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So here's one posting with y'all style.

Whether there was an actual causative association between lack of adequate vaccinations leading to over-run ED's and ICU's leading to our inability to save patients we could normally save, it is a fair assumption that should lead to a theory that should lead to a null hypothesis that can be researched.

They don't do that in this article, they just go off the assumption. This is why posting an article like this is NOT actual medical research and should not be held up as such.

Just thought I'd post one y'alls style and illustrate the difference and how these things can be used to mislead.


 
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I work with large data sets ("big data"). Data are almost always and inevitably flawed. That is a reality of life in the research world. The presence of flaws alone is not enough to dismiss analyses that result from imperfect data sets. The severity of the flaws, if known, is what has to be considered. So it is certainly possible to reach an actionable conclusion even with imperfect data. Handling data flaws correctly is a highly technical skill and there are many sufficient approaches in doing so. Ultimately, though, if the data are just that bad, then it is what it is.

I will check out version 76

I agree that we should be concerned with side effects of the vaccine. I just think that, given the evidence, that COVID is by far a bigger concern. Like I've said in the past, having to decide between getting a vaccine and potentially getting COVID is a crappy position to be in (but it is an easy decision, at least for me).
I know, no data set is ever perfect. But the historical reviews of VAERS indicate it's not even close to real. I'm not sure, but I think the normal reporting requirements are voluntary and EUA are required. Even then, it's hard to find anyone who supports its accuracy - you have to sign an agreement to that effect to even use the database.

Earlier this year it reported over 12k deaths from Covid vaccines, it's not 6800 or so. Lots and lots and lots of noise in that dataset.

I've also heard filling out a report is pretty time consuming...which means when the shit is hitting the fan at a hospital most medical professionals are going to prioritize patient care over paperwork.

Lastly, I agree on the vaccine and that's why I took it. But my risk profile is very, very different that my 16YO and 13YO lacrosse player sons. Kids are in great shape and low bodyfat, have no known underlying conditions, and are extremely likely to overcome Covid with little to no symptoms. That data is pretty solid. I don't trust any study that balances that dataset against VAERS and draws a conclusion. I just don't trust it.
 
I know, no data set is ever perfect.
I think this is why I put him on Ignore more than the cheerleading. There were massive red flags in several of the studies that he and internet doctor glowed about. Such as selectively pulling data from patients in 13 areas around the country, then drawing conclusions about the population as a whole. That's obvious propaganda, but they waved it away with 'no data set is perfect, let's not ignore the findings' LOL. If the findings come from corrupted data, yeah....you ignore them.

Just tell the truth, and let the chips fall where they may. Sure, some people will disagree with you. That's life.
 
I know, no data set is ever perfect. But the historical reviews of VAERS indicate it's not even close to real. I'm not sure, but I think the normal reporting requirements are voluntary and EUA are required. Even then, it's hard to find anyone who supports its accuracy - you have to sign an agreement to that effect to even use the database.

Earlier this year it reported over 12k deaths from Covid vaccines, it's not 6800 or so. Lots and lots and lots of noise in that dataset.

I've also heard filling out a report is pretty time consuming...which means when the shit is hitting the fan at a hospital most medical professionals are going to prioritize patient care over paperwork.

Lastly, I agree on the vaccine and that's why I took it. But my risk profile is very, very different that my 16YO and 13YO lacrosse player sons. Kids are in great shape and low bodyfat, have no known underlying conditions, and are extremely likely to overcome Covid with little to no symptoms. That data is pretty solid. I don't trust any study that balances that dataset against VAERS and draws a conclusion. I just don't trust it.
For sure, and like I said, I'm not referring to VAERS, just a general observation. I have seen some pretty consistent criticisms of it, so I don't think it is anything out of line. It isn't a database that I work with or use in my own research (and probably won't if it is problematic).
When it comes to young people, and those with much lower risk profiles getting vaccinated, this is why I emphasize doing research and having a conversation with your personal doctor to decide what is the best decision for you. Furthermore, it is why I strongly oppose mandates and the politicization of health issues (though inevitable, unfortunately).
 
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The people blindly pushing vaccines are our enemies.

The left ALWAYS does this. They immediately attempt to reframe the good guys as the bad guys.

They are the bad guys. The shot cheerleaders are the bad guys.

We are the good guys. Its time we stop letting them corrupt the language.
April 4-June 19
Total number of cases: 615,454
Total Hospitalizations: 37,948
Total Hospitalizations in NOT FULLY VACCINATED: 34,972
Total Hospitalizations in FULLY VACCINATED: 2,976
Total Deaths from COVID in NOT FULLY VACCINATED: 6,132
Total Deaths from COVID in FULLY VACCINATED: 616

Total % Deaths in NOT FULLY VACCINATED: 91% of all COVID Deaths over this time frame
Total % of Hospitalizations in NOT FULLY VACCINATED: 92% of all COVID Hospitalizations over this time frame

States Studied: ** Alabama, Arizona, Colorado, Indiana, Los Angeles County (California), Louisiana, Maryland, Minnesota, New Mexico, New York City (New York), North Carolina, Seattle/King County (Washington), and Utah.
 
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More of the ‘as vaccinations go up so too will those hospitalized despite vaccination’ narrative.

Just part of the math someone has to do. I get why, but it also points to flaws in how we’re trying to prevent the illness from this virus. Maybe if we did more with treatments and prophylactics…

 
More of the ‘as vaccinations go up so too will those hospitalized despite vaccination’ narrative.

Just part of the math someone has to do. I get why, but it also points to flaws in how we’re trying to prevent the illness from this virus. Maybe if we did more with treatments and prophylactics…

@fatman76 what is your takeaway from this article?
 
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