Oh Dear.
Do we need to compare SOS again? You and I already did it and concluded Florida SOS is much, much better than FSU's.
Winston Leaves, 4-Loss Fisher Returns
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Oh Dear.
Do we need to compare SOS again? You and I already did it and concluded Florida SOS is much, much better than FSU's.
It amazes me how you guys don't see how silly this argument is! Without "______" insert player, such and such coach is not that successful. Even though that same coach recruited and developed that player and said player ran his coach offense, yet the coach gets no credit. Lol. Whatever man.
There are a few. But that is not the point. The point is this; sans Winston, Fisher is a average to above average coach. During that four year time span, he won the ACC....once. Once. Think about that for a moment. And his is averaging three losses or better, and counting.
If Fisher had not lost to a pathetic GaTech team this year, then your point might have some merit. That he has been on an upward trajectory since he was HC and now he is hitting his stride. That only a great Clemson team derailed him from at least another ACC title. But that is not true, is it?
That loss changed everything. That loss was not to a resurgent ACC team. Or an improved Florida team. (That loss may be still yet to come). No that loss was not to a good team. It was to a pathetic team. A team that has not won since they beat your team. There is no excuse for a six year head coach to lose to a team like that. Even in a rebuilding year.
You guys can't admit it. I understand. But it is true.
Fisher averages three losses a year without Winston. I posted that to prove you wrong. Try and keep up......buddy.
It's just that they don't want to admit that they were wrong. They talked mad ish about Fisher when he was hired and it hasn't really worked out for them. Instead of just going "I really didn't see FSU having this much success with Fisher. He's done a good job." it's dig your heels in and fight to the death. Can you imagine if Fisher wins a 2nd title in the next 4 years with Francois or Henry?
We give Fisher credit for Winston. But Winston is not around any more. How will Fisher do without him? Past seasons without him suggests not so well. And this year reinforces that point.
We are not wrong. You are just dense.
But, Fisher better try and win another ACC title. He only won one without Winston. In four tries.
You guys are really quite delusional, aren't you?
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Oh, OK. So now the argument is his "average" losses when Winston is not the qb?? That was not the point of the thread. But whatever.
Wrong again. You stated "he hasn't even coached his sixth season yet!" To try to demean the point of people giving a verdict on his coaching abilities. I correctly pointed out that if you think it's retarded for people to judge him after 6 years, or his 4 years without Winston, then it's equally retarded for declaring him 'elite' based on two seasons of work. 6>2. 4>2. People tend to go with larger sample sizes when proving a point, except you of course. Try to keep up with your own arguments please.
That has always been my argument. Try and keep up....buddy. And the jury is still out on whether your coach will manage four losses this year. So the point of the thread is still valid.
Dude come on man. What Coach has won the NC that is not elite?? Whose plays do you think Winston was executing?? Whose offense was he running?? Who recruited those elite players that got the job done in 2013?? Do you guys really believe Winston developed himself and called his own plays??
No it hasn't. You came up with the "four loss Fisher" without Jameis and when it was proven to be factually incorrect, it changed to the "average" losses when Jameis wasn't the qb, which is equally silly.
That was EXACTLY the point of this thread, which is titled
"Winston Leaves, 4-Loss Fisher Returns"
You are just trying to muddy the water at this point. Fisher has clearly been an elite coach since 2010 (when he became a HC). This isn't debatable. MJ stated "there are a few" coaches that have been more successful since 2010. A few. I think you may want to consult a dictionary on the words "average" and "elite".
As for being an elite coach in the grand scheme of college football, obviously 6 years is not enough time to be considered "elite". You can't compare Jimbo Fisher's 6 year career to Steve Spurrier's 28 year career for instance. That is just common sense. Of course, you're going to try to conflate things because you're fighting an unwinnable battle. You REPEATEDLY state that a guy with an .835 winning % and a natty has been "average". Only a homer discussing a rival could make that leap.
Yea I'd put Miles in that category too. Fulmer was not elite either. Nor Lou Holtz.
Again, he gets full credit for those two seasons and Winston. That isn't and never was the argument. In fact, that's the entire point. Comparing those seasons to all his others. My only point is that 4 seasons is a larger sample size than 2, so if he wants to call Fisher 'elite' because of that stretch then it's more than justified for someone to call him average because of his 4 seasons separate from those.
As to your question: Chizik, Coker, Fulmer, and Mack Brown right off the top of my head recently. Go further back guys like Lloyd Carr and Dennis Erickson were average as hell. Erickson has been fired twice. Sure there's more but I don't care enough to go look
Wut? It's the title of the fricken thread you are CURRENTLY POSTING IN!!!
It's exactly the point of this thread
The title of the thread is "Winston leaves, 4-loss Fisher returns". That is factually incorrect. Do you disagree??
No, I did not coin the phrase. A poster named int coined it. But I loved it. Becasue at the time, in two of the three years before Winston, that was his record. It remains to be seen if his record will be 4 losses this year, the year after Winston. Hell, probabilities suggest there will be at least three losses.
You sir, have just finished this discussion. No way any sane person can argue that logic.
I mean there might be a little bit of wiggle room if fisher hadn't been losing an average of 3 games a year in the non Winston seasons against such piss poor competition.
Not yet. The season is not over. Plus, it could happen next year. So, he will always have that moniker. Until he does not.
Sure whatever. We'll ask the mods to change it to "3 loss fisher". Better?
Although since it's the acc those 3 a year should really count double.
This is contradictory and a bit of a jumbled mess. If your intent was to "give Fisher full credit" for 2013 and 2014, you wouldn't be comparing those seasons to his first couple of years. The entire point of saying something like "Without Winston 4 loss Fisher returns" is to diminish Fisher's role in the 2013 and 2014 seasons. It seems silly to state otherwise.
At least once this year. And at least once in 2012. I do not remember the line when they played us and we kicked their asses, so it might be two. They were certainly favored, if memory serves. And four times in 2011. And four times in 2010.
But hey, he is an ELITE coach!
No, no, no, no.
Your point seem to be this; Fisher struggled in his first two years. That can happen with new coaches (Coach Mac notwithstanding). He made a big improvement in 2012, in spite of losing two games in which he was favored. And he made HUGE strides in 2013 and 2014. End of story. He is an ELITE coach.
But that is not the end of story. There is the little matter of this year. Fisher lost to a pathetic team. An issue that you have not sufficiently addressed, other than to say, "hey it happens." Had he not done that, if his team only had one loss, a loss to a very good Clemson team, then you might have a point.
MJ you might be giving Clemson too much credit. Jury is still out. Did you really feel like Clemson was clearly superior to fsu in a position by position comparison? I think the talent was closer than the play on the field suggested. Which further bolsters our arguement about Fisher
Everything "further bolsters your argument about Fisher" because anything that doesn't you guys go "la la la la la la", plug your ears, and close your eyes to.
Yea, no. Those two points are not remotely contradictory. And this is year 6, what's the excuse now? I don't understand why you can make rationalizations like 'it was his first few years' to minimize average results and basically discard the years that aren't favorable to him and then accuse people of selectively choosing seasons to look at, but then in the same breath selectively choose two seasons to argue he's elite. Now that's contradictory.
No need. Do you know the answer? Certainly can't be more than once for an elite coach I'm assuming. Maybe twice or thrice (I like that word btw).
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So do you think Clemson is that much more talented than fsu? Or maybe you believe Dabo <gulp> is just a better coach than Jimbo? Which is it?
LOL the excuse for what? Not already having 4 national titles? The guy has 3 ACC titles, a national championship, an Orange Bowl win, a playoff appearance, and a 10-1 record against his rivals in his first 6 seasons as a HC and you continually act like he hasn't done anything. It is so insane lol.
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