“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;”
So, I can’t have a carved statue of Shamu?
Happy MLK Day
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“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;”
So, I can’t have a carved statue of Shamu?
The un-informed WeWe strikes again with his reading comp deficiencies....
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. Statues or carvings in general, are not worshiped graven images in my understanding of that Commandment. So keep your statue, just don't bow down to it, like you do to your traitorous Rat leaders.... (helpful?) |
Bumped to the new page....
park_mike said:
No offense, but underneath that statement is a very arrogant perspective. You cannot call yourself a "Christian" and disregard the Bible...any of it.
park_mike said:
No offense, but underneath that statement is a very arrogant perspective. You cannot call yourself a "Christian" and disregard the Bible...any of it.
Ok, so we are going out into left field on this one...lol. I'm fine with that. However, you have to take my comments in context, which unfortunately, not many people do.
This all started with the comment that Biden is a faithful Catholic. I pointed out that his espoused positions on a multitude of moral issues were diametrically opposed to the official positions and doctrines of the Catholic church. Therefore, he could not be considered a "faithful" Catholic as the term faithful has a very specific meaning in Catholicism.
I was making my point that you don't get to pick and choose what parts of a religious system you agree with and which parts you don't and then still call yourself a disciple or adherent of that particular faith. You may agree and disagree with all manner of religious thought but you cannot call yourself a member of that faith tradition if you disregard teachings of that faith tradition because you personally don't like them. That is obviously your prerogative, but religious traditions have developed pretty specific traditions and doctrines. If you disregard teachings, you are essentially making up your own religion using pieces of various traditions which you like. You can do that, but you cannot be intellectually honest in calling yourself a follower of that particular faith tradition.
Ok, now that we have that out of the way, I have actually read the Book of Enoch. Enoch was a man who lived at the dawn of time, was mentioned in Genesis as walking with God and then was taken up. I believe he may be one of the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation along with Elijah as those two are the only people who, according to the Bible, never died. The Book of Enoch was discovered relatively recently, if memory serves in the late 1800s and copies were found with some of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Portions of it are mentioned in the New Testament which suggest that the New Testament writers knew of its existence. As far as I know, it has never been adopted by the Jewish people as part of their canonical works, was never taught in synagogues, and was never considered the inspired word of God by Christians. It was never part of the Bible.
As you are probably aware, there were many books (letters or writings) in the first century after Christ. Not all of them were deemed inspired by God and made part of the cannon of Scripture. Even now, certain religious traditions debate whether certain writings should be canonical. (apocrypha and others)
As for the translations of the Bible, it has been translated more than any other work in history. I have no idea how many times the King James version has been translated. If you are attempting to suggest that the Bible has changed over time in significant ways through translation, you and I are going to disagree. The discovery of the dead sea scrolls and extremely old manuscripts of the gospels show that the Bible has remained incredibly consistent throughout time.
As for the flood, not sure what your point is...are you suggesting that the Bible adopted the flood story from another culture?
Final point. By your bolding and underlining, I am assuming you are taking offense to my suggestion that you cannot disregard the Bible and call yourself a Christian. Are you suggesting that there is no consensus on what constitutes the Bible, or is your point that you believe you can pick and choose which parts of the Bible you agree with and disagree with and still call yourself a Christian despite disagreeing with clear teachings regarding faith and morals found in the Bible? So, as long as you believe a couple of things about the Christian faith tradition, you can call yourself a Christian despite not adopting everything? Just trying to understand your questions and perspective so we can have an intelligent conversation without assuming positions.
Bold and underline to direct one to specifics, no offense is given or taken in open discussion.
Sin: a transgression of the law of God. "For all have sinned..."
To the best of my long experience, NOBODY follows all of the laws or doctrines of any religion.
Parked Mike said: "If you disregard teachings (sin), you are essentially making up your own religion using pieces of various traditions which you like. You can do that, but you cannot be intellectually honest in calling yourself a follower of that particular faith tradition." (not true imo, see sinners)
"making up your own religion using pieces...."
What the Assyrians did when they translated from the Sumerians.
What the Babylonians did when they translated from the Assyrians.
What the Jews did when they translated from the Babylonians.
What the Catholics did when they translated from the Jews.
What the King James did when he adjusted for the Catholic Pope's money grab.
The Protestant version is born. A Division within Christianity, originating from the Reformation in the 16th century against the Roman Catholic Church, that rejects the Roman Catholic doctrines of papal supremacy and sacraments.
And then you have today's many different versions of New Testament Protestant Christianity. Baptists, Methodists, etc.....
The story of Gilgamesh is a lot older than the Jew's Old Testament Bible, which is incomplete itself imo.
You might want to read 'Genesis Revisited' by Zecharia Sitchin.
'Is Modern Science Catching Up With Ancient Knowledge?'
Personally, I don't need any structured religious dogmas from any rabbi, priest, preacher.
"The message of Jesus is so simple that even a child can understand it."
I have the mind to think and a heart to feel that God gave me, and the example of how to live a successful life from Jesus. I'm good with that and I'll leave judgement, for or against me, up to God.
If God wanted me to be different than I am, then he should have made me differently. 😉 --- i.e. Bertrand Russell
Sin: a transgression of the law of God. "For all have sinned..."
To the best of my long experience, NOBODY follows all of the laws or doctrines of any religion.
Parked Mike said: "If you disregard teachings (sin), you are essentially making up your own religion using pieces of various traditions which you like. You can do that, but you cannot be intellectually honest in calling yourself a follower of that particular faith tradition." (not true imo, see sinners)
"making up your own religion using pieces...."
What the Assyrians did when they translated from the Sumerians.
What the Babylonians did when they translated from the Assyrians.
What the Jews did when they translated from the Babylonians.
What the Catholics did when they translated from the Jews.
What the King James did when he adjusted for the Catholic Pope's money grab.
The Protestant version is born. A Division within Christianity, originating from the Reformation in the 16th century against the Roman Catholic Church, that rejects the Roman Catholic doctrines of papal supremacy and sacraments.
And then you have today's many different versions of New Testament Protestant Christianity. Baptists, Methodists, etc.....
The story of Gilgamesh is a lot older than the Jew's Old Testament Bible, which is incomplete itself imo.
You might want to read 'Genesis Revisited' by Zecharia Sitchin.
'Is Modern Science Catching Up With Ancient Knowledge?'
Personally, I don't need any structured religious dogmas from any rabbi, priest, preacher.
"The message of Jesus is so simple that even a child can understand it."
I have the mind to think and a heart to feel that God gave me, and the example of how to live a successful life from Jesus. I'm good with that and I'll leave judgement, for or against me, up to God.
If God wanted me to be different than I am, then he should have made me differently. 😉 --- i.e. Bertrand Russell
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I think we are talking past each other.
I agree all have sinned and it is a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, not any other Biblical person, which is the gateway to salvation. My point was that what we know of Christ's teachings come from the Bible and he used teachings from the Old Testament and said he did not come to throw out the law, but to fulfil it.
My point is that you cannot call yourself a member of a faith tradition while intentionally disregarding teachings of that tradition. That is precisely why we have so many denominations in Christianity, because people have interpreted scripture differently over the years. We can never know fully, this side of eternity, what those passages actually mean but we do our best to follow what we truly believe those passages mean, we don't disregard them because we don't like what they say.
As for Gilgamesh, my personal opinion is that the historical fact that so many cultures have a flood story only proves to make the Biblical story of Noah more believable, not less. The fact that the Biblical account was passed down orally for generations before it was written down by Moses does not mean that it is inaccurate. It only means someone wrote it down at a later date.
As for structured religious dogmas, I agree that people have placed too much emphasis on organized religion and have sacrificed a true relationship with Jesus. That does not mean that corporate worship is not Biblical or a necessary part of a relationship with Christ. We are called to carry one another's burdens, to build each other up and to use our different gifts within the church body. Christianity is not a solo endeavor. At least that is what the Bible teaches.
I was not there with Jesus 2000 years ago, unfortunately, and have to take the writings of his contemporaries as true in order to understand his teaching along with the revelation God gives me through the reading of His word. In doing so, I have to trust that God has shepherded His word throughout the ages to give us an accurate Bible. Otherwise, we are simply grasping in the dark which is not what God says in the Bible.
Believe me, I am very well read and have struggled with all these issues and way more. Unlike most, I know what I believe and more importantly why I believe it. That being said, the gospel message is very simple...confess to others that Jesus is Lord and make it true in your life through your actions and believe in your heart that He is truly God and you will be saved. That is what I am trusting my eternity to...not any particular religious or denominational dogma as I am sure no one has it completely right.
Agree...but with balance on a knifes edge imo...
Ephesians 2: 8-9 (NIV)
8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9) not by works, so that no one can boast.
I whole heartedly agree. Works does not save you but if you are truly saved and have had your heart change, your actions will reflect that. When people debate faith vs. works, they are missing the point in my opinion. They go hand in hand. If you truly believe in what you say you do, it will change the way you live. If you do not, and only speak hollow words, your actions show what is truly in your heart. That is why Jesus said his followers will be known by their fruit (works) and why James said show me your works to demonstrate your faith.
Although Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians has some holes.
In the period leading up to the American Civil War (1861–65), Ephesians 6:5 on master-slave relationships was one of the Bible verses used by Confederate slaveholders in support of a slaveholding position.
Those were man's holes...if you can pardon the expression.
And I believe Master and slave relationship was describing employer-employee relationship. Those were the terms of the day...no unions and whatnot.
Expanding on what BamaFan said, the slavery of the day was more similar to indentured servanthood, sometimes voluntary, than the chattel slavery of the new world in the 17-1800s. That being said, reading the entire bible, Jesus was not concerned about the circumstances of men and women in this physical world as much as he was about their spiritual health. In fact, he stated that he was a servant, and that those who humbled themselves would be lifted up.
Jesus did not rail about the injustices of the Roman government which were way worse than the ones in the Americas in the 1800s. Instead, he concentrated on the individual's relationship to God. We are going to have crappy circumstances here on earth. It is a given. People get sick, they are treated poorly, there is suffering. That is the nature of this world. Nothing is going to change that. Jesus was concerned with eternal things. Even his closest disciples died brutal deaths as did many of his followers. We are not guaranteed equity, fair treatment, or personal freedom here on earth. That is not the point of the Bible.
Not to say that we should use scripture to intentionally make other people's lives worse. The slave holders using that verse took Paul waaaaaay out of context. He was basically saying that everyone should reflect the humility of Christ in all things (as he did in his suffering and in prison) and be more concerned about eternal things instead of concentrating on temporal pleasures.
Also remember that people can take fundamentally good ideas and concepts and pervert them terribly. Look at the BLM movement. I don't think any rational person would suggest that black lives don't matter. However, people from that movement have perverted the concept of equality and used it as a license to riot, loot, steal, and commit all kinds of illegal acts. Just because something at its core is laudable and correct does not mean that humans will hijack that movement as an excuse to fulfil their own immoral desires. That has been done countless times with Christianity dating all the way back to the Dark ages, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the papacy, and versions of the modern Western Christian church.
Each person is required to to the best that they can inside the 10 Commandments.
Those commandments are a guide to how people can live together in a civilization.
Belief in Jesus is the Christian path to eternity (it's what I grew up with, I chose to be baptized).
There are other true paths to correct living in the eyes of God,,, IMO.
When it comes to living life, each to his own that does not take you down an EVIL path....
Good and Evil in detail are sometimes difficult to explain, but most can tell the difference in actions.
Blessings to all those who chose to do good and turn away from evil.
Those commandments are a guide to how people can live together in a civilization.
Belief in Jesus is the Christian path to eternity (it's what I grew up with, I chose to be baptized).
There are other true paths to correct living in the eyes of God,,, IMO.
When it comes to living life, each to his own that does not take you down an EVIL path....
Good and Evil in detail are sometimes difficult to explain, but most can tell the difference in actions.
Blessings to all those who chose to do good and turn away from evil.
Respectfully, I am not sure I can agree that there are other true paths to correct living in God's eyes. Christianity claims that the only means to salvation is through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the acknowledgement of his divinity, lordship, and actions in your life consistent with that.
As for living not to take you down an evil path, how do you define evil? What is evil under some faith traditions is not evil in others. What is sin in one is laudable in others. If that is the case, how can we agree upon a universal, inclusive definition of good and evil if they are defined differently? I am genuinely curious as to your logic and rationale in this regard as I wish I believed that all people will eventually come to God and be saved eternally.
Seems like a relevant quote:
“
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. —Romans 2:12-16
“
The context of this quote appears to be specific to gentiles vs Jews, specifically the “do gentiles need to follow the (Jewish) law?” discussions of the 1st century church. I’m not sure how to properly reconcile this with other excerpts that seem emphasize justificatio sola fide.
I'm not certain that I fully understand you or that I'm on the right track but...
Jeremiah 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
If your point was "do _____'s have to follow the laws of _____'s" then Jeremiah 1:5 isn't entirely relevant.
If the point was that people who don't know Christ are somehow not responsible, I believe Jeremiah 1:5 puts that to rest. If He knew you, you knew Him...even if you've never heard His name out loud.
I believe this points to the fact that the law was given to the Jews to show them just how far from God's perfection they were. There is no way that a person could actually keep the law. The passage you quoted shows that God has placed his nature on display in creation and revealed it throughout all of time to the hearts of Jews and Gentiles alike. Remember, there were no Jews nor the law prior to Jacob (Israel) and then Moses, so people like Job, Abraham, Noah, Enoch and many others who Hebrews says are justified through faith would not have had the law to explicitly follow.
Basically, God has revealed himself to all, regardless of ethnicity, time of living, or proximity to Jerusalem. We all inherently know right verses wrong because we are made in the image of God and he has instilled a common sense of justice in us all. God cares about the heart, not specific actions, even if technically proper. (See Samuel's response to Saul regarding sacrifices and Paul saying his best actions are filthy rags) Those truly seeking God, even if they don't know about the law or specifically Jesus, I believe, will find salvation since God has stated that those who seek Him with all of their heart will find him. This provides for the salvation of people groups who have never been reached with the Gospel of Jesus. However, that is not to say that you can gain eternal life through adhering to other religions or religious traditions. The Bible is pretty explicit about that.
So, there is only one way to God...through belief in Him, acknowledgment of your own sinful nature, coupled with the saving work of Jesus on the cross. How that is revealed to you is between you and God. That being said, since we all know the good news of Jesus and his death and resurrection, we have no excuse and cannot try to make our own path to eternal life through any other means.
Of the approximate 2.5 billion Christians in the world today, 279 million (12.8% of the world's Christian population) identify themselves as Pentecostals, 304 million (14%) are Charismatics, and 285 million (13.1%) are Evangelicals or Bible-believing Christians.
The population of the world is projected to reach 8,046,949,318 by the end of the 2022.
It just seems vastly arrogant for anyone to believe that a loving God would send over 5.5+ Billion to Hell for not being Christians.
That kind of religion based EVIL has allowed the supposedly pious to condemn to death what they called pagans, or in the case of Muslims, the infidels.
Religious beliefs are one thing, and every human has a right to their own beliefs imo.
Religious WARS and Imperialism are something else entirely, and much evil has been done in the name of God. (I'm betting God's not happy about that)
I don't care much what others chose to believe, or not to believe.
I just go my own way and I'll leave it up to God to judge me when my time comes.
Anyone pushing their own brand of religious Dogma, is the kind of people I try to avoid.
Yawl have at it, I'm done with tihis....
The population of the world is projected to reach 8,046,949,318 by the end of the 2022.
It just seems vastly arrogant for anyone to believe that a loving God would send over 5.5+ Billion to Hell for not being Christians.
That kind of religion based EVIL has allowed the supposedly pious to condemn to death what they called pagans, or in the case of Muslims, the infidels.
Religious beliefs are one thing, and every human has a right to their own beliefs imo.
Religious WARS and Imperialism are something else entirely, and much evil has been done in the name of God. (I'm betting God's not happy about that)
I don't care much what others chose to believe, or not to believe.
I just go my own way and I'll leave it up to God to judge me when my time comes.
Anyone pushing their own brand of religious Dogma, is the kind of people I try to avoid.
Yawl have at it, I'm done with tihis....
Interesting...
I agree that going to war over religious ideology is a bad thing. I disagree with the Crusades, the Inquisition and a bunch of other horrible things done in the supposed name of God and against Christ's teachings.
That being said, I am curious as to what you actually believe. Your comments above suggest that you believe in Jesus and align with Christianity yet also suggest you do not believe that Christ is the only way to eternal life. No disrespect, but upon what do you base your belief system? The Bible? Only portions of the Bible? Your own divine revelation? Bits and pieces here and there?
You say it is arrogant to believe that a loving God will send the majority of people to hell yet those are not my words, they are Jesus' words. Are you suggesting that Jesus was arrogant or was he wrong or mistaken. If mistaken, how can you place your trust in a figure who is wrong about such an important thing.
Again, not trying to be contrarian, but just trying to figure out your point of view. I would love to believe all people eventually get to go to Heaven, but that is not what Jesus preached. In fact, he preached exactly the opposite.
Caucasian on Caucasian crime or minority crimes against Caucasians is acceptable, Sir.
