Another blow for the 2nd Amendment

[EvilWayz]

Those idiotic red flag laws Desantis signed into law are limited in scope. Look for Scotus to strike them down entirely.

Appeals court warns judges that seizures are limited in scope.

 

[NavigatorII]

Those idiotic red flag laws Desantis signed into law are limited in scope. Look for Scotus to strike them down entirely.

Appeals court warns judges that seizures are limited in scope.

I haven't been following the red flag thing at all. Can you explain what's happening in simple terms? I thought it was Scott that signed that bullshit red flag stuff.

 

[EvilWayz]

Nope it was Desantis that signed both red flag laws and raising the age to purchase a long arm from 18 to 21. Which he's going to answer for personally, to me, if he runs for President. I want to know how its ok to send an 18 year old to Iraq with a rifle to defend his country but he can't buy one when he comes home to protect his family. In Florida, for Christ's sake.

How a red flag law works: You know how people report you on Facebook and they take down your post and put you in jail with no recourse? This is the firearm equivalent. Someone says you are dangerous and have guns and the cops come take your shit with no prior legal recourse. You have to go to court to try and get your shit back.

 

[NavigatorII]

Nope it was Desantis that signed both red flag laws and raising the age to purchase a long arm from 18 tp 21. Which Hes going to answer for personally, to me, if he runs for President. I want to know how its ok to send an 18 year old to Iraq with a rifle to defend his country but he can't buy one when he comes home to protect his family.

How a red flag law works: You know how people report you on Facebook and they take down your post and put you in jail with no recourse? This is the firearm equivalent. Someone says you are dangerous and have guns and the cops come take your shit with no prior legal recourse. You have to go to court to try and get your shit back.

That's been going on a while. A buddy of mine got a court order to turn over his SHOTGUNS back around 2010. He missed an entire hunting season because of it. His ex wife to be got a restraining order against him (she was a real piece of work, nut job, a practicing witch and that is not a fabrication, a real witch in a coven).😂 He didn't even own a handgun.

I'm really not up to speed on DeSantis signings on guns. What executive order or legislation did he sign? That's disappointing.

I found this:

The Risk Protection Act, a "red flag" law that Florida Gov. Rick Scott (R) signed shortly after the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School mass shooting in February, allows the state to take away guns from their owners if a judge finds they are a threat to themselves or others.

More than 450 Floridians ordered to surrender guns under ‘red flag’ law

More than 450 people in Florida have been ordered to surrender their guns since March under a law passed after the Parkland school shooting, according to a local ABC affiliate.The Ri…

thehill.com

 

[NavigatorII]

Evilz I also found this:

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) signed a bill on Friday that bans local governments from imposing gun regulations.

DeSantis signs bill banning gun regulations by local governments

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) signed a bill on Friday that bans local governments from imposing gun regulations.The bill expands a 2011 law that allows citizens or gun groups to sue local gove…

thehill.com

 

[EvilWayz]

That's been going on a while. A buddy of mine got a court order to turn over his SHOTGUNS back around 2010. He missed an entire hunting season because of it. His ex wife to be got a restraining order against him (she was a real piece of work, nut job, a practicing witch and that is not a fabrication, a real witch in a coven).😂 He didn't even own a handgun.

I'm really not up to speed on DeSantis signings on guns. What executive order or legislation did he sign? That's disappointing.

I found this:

The Risk Protection Act, a "red flag" law that Florida Gov. Rick Scott (R) signed shortly after the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School mass shooting in February, allows the state to take away guns from their owners if a judge finds they are a threat to themselves or others.

More than 450 Floridians ordered to surrender guns under ‘red flag’ law

More than 450 people in Florida have been ordered to surrender their guns since March under a law passed after the Parkland school shooting, according to a local ABC affiliate.The Ri…

thehill.com

You're right that was after the Douglas Stoneman shooting down south. That was Scott. However he has said he supported them. So did President Trump. They both lose points for that. I'm extra mad at Trump, he was personally responsible for closing down two companies and putting about 800 people out of work. SCOTUS overturned the bumpstock ban pretty quickly and most people either hid theirs or sold them but I don't know if either company that makes them is back on their feet yet.

 

[EvilWayz]

"When a law enforcement agency determines a person poses a threat to himself or others, the agency requests a risk protection order. A judge holds a hearing within 24 hours with the police officers who swear to the allegations. If the judge enters the temporary risk protection order, the judge will order a search of the respondent's home to secure any firearms or ammunition.

Within a couple of weeks, a judge holds a final hearing at which point a person can oppose the order. This is a civil process, so the respondent is allowed to hire a lawyer but there is no right to a court-appointed lawyer."

I see three problems with this. 1) cops lie. 2) you aren't getting a lawyer automatically. 3) its public record that you have been disarmed. And now that i think of it, 4) you have to wait a couple weeks to even get your hearing.

 

[NavigatorII]

"When a law enforcement agency determines a person poses a threat to himself or others, the agency requests a risk protection order. A judge holds a hearing within 24 hours with the police officers who swear to the allegations. If the judge enters the temporary risk protection order, the judge will order a search of the respondent's home to secure any firearms or ammunition.

Within a couple of weeks, a judge holds a final hearing at which point a person can oppose the order. This is a civil process, so the respondent is allowed to hire a lawyer but there is no right to a court-appointed lawyer."

I see three problems with this. 1) cops lie. 2) you aren't getting a lawyer automatically. 3) its public record that you have been disarmed. And now that i think of it, 4) you have to wait a couple weeks to even get your hearing.

The red flag thing is a slippery slope. Obviously mentally ill people with a violent history shouldn't be packing guns. The rub here is that "who decides who is competent", and some flaming antigun judge can tee off on anyone they see fit to disarm......and it might just be politics, and have nothing to do with competency.

 

[EvilWayz]

The red flag thing is a slippery slope. Obviously mentally ill people with a violent history shouldn't be packing guns. The rub here is that "who decides who is competent", and some flaming antigun judge can tee off on anyone they see fit to disarm......and it might just be politics, and have nothing to do with competency.

We've had laws on the books to deal with mentally ill people. 72 hour Baker act to decide if they are a threat to themselves or others that can be extended up to 30 days.

 

[NavigatorII]

We've had laws on the books to deal with mentally ill people. 72 hour Baker act to decide if they are a threat to themselves or others that can be extended up to 30 days.

Like everything else.........these laws are about "feelz' and not about reality.

The Dimtard Motto: JUST DO SOMETHING! ANYTHING! It doesn't matter if it even addresses the cause or effect. Hell, that goes for RINOs as well. Lip service and pandering.

 

[BamaFan1137]

I see three problems with this. 1) cops lie. 2) you aren't getting a lawyer automatically. 3) its public record that you have been disarmed. And now that i think of it, 4) you have to wait a couple weeks to even get your hearing.

Why would the cops lie about this? To what end? They just have spare time to screw with people for no reason at all?

Also, it's a court proceeding. If they are lying, there are very serious consequences. Judges love it when people lie to them...x10 in court.

You can still request a lawyer for a civil hearing. You just aren't guaranteed counsel in civil hearings.

I've disarmed people going through a mental crisis. It isn't a fun thing to do. In fact it's dangerous AF. It's not something that is done on a whim. You have to convince a judge why it is necessary prior to any of this. If judges are abusing this type of order along with the cops, they should absolutely face discipline.

However, people sometimes just lose their ish. Those people who are truly in mental crisis should not be armed. That is obviously a recipe for disaster.

 

[BamaFan1137]

The red flag thing is a slippery slope. Obviously mentally ill people with a violent history shouldn't be packing guns. The rub here is that "who decides who is competent", and some flaming antigun judge can tee off on anyone they see fit to disarm......and it might just be politics, and have nothing to do with competency.

Replace those judges then and fire the cops who are abusing the orders.

I've had to disarm a former cop who was in mental crisis. It absolutely sucked but it was absolutely the right thing to do.

 

[EvilWayz]

Why would the cops lie about this? To what end? They just have spare time to screw with people for no reason at all?

Also, it's a court proceeding. If they are lying, there are very serious consequences. Judges love it when people lie to them...x10 in court.

Dude, you're a cop. Cops lie in court all the damn time. And you've been to enough DVs to know that women lie too. And most of the time when they do there is no consequence. I was in court last year for a situation I am not going to get into and not one but TWO different chicks testified that they lied to cops when they called them on their domestic partner.

You can still request a lawyer for a civil hearing. You just aren't guaranteed counsel in civil hearings.

^ That sounds pretty unconstitutional to me. You're depriving me of my 2nd amendment rights and I don't get a lawyer on my day in court?

I've disarmed people going through a mental crisis. It isn't a fun thing to do. In fact it's dangerous AF. It's not something that is done on a whim. You have to convince a judge why it is necessary prior to any of this. If judges are abusing this type of order along with the cops, they should absolutely face discipline.

However, people sometimes just lose their ish. Those people who are truly in mental crisis should not be armed. That is obviously a recipe for disaster.

Being able to unilaterally seize guns is a slippery slope. I've baker acted people and I've been baker acted and that's a pretty flawed system in Florida as well.

 

[NavigatorII]

Dude, you're a cop. Cops lie in court all the damn time. And you've been to enough DVs to know that women lie too. And most of the time when they do there is no consequence. I was in court last year for a situation I am not going to get into and not one but TWO different chicks testified that they lied to cops when they called them on their domestic partner.

Insider trading? lol How's your buddy Steve these days, Mr Skybox? From memory he went to Tally and then to Jax to practice law. Mr Spaceheater, the only guy I know who needed a sweater in a Florida office to practice law. He and JD Gator, BONG, Gecko and his aliases, Noah2Leak, Trip, Swami, none of them post anymore.

 

[EvilWayz]

Insider trading? lol How's your buddy Steve these days, Mr Skybox? From memory he went to Tally and then to Jax to practice law. Mr Spaceheater, the only guy I know who needed a sweater in a Florida office to practice law. He and JD Gator, BONG, Gecko and his aliases, Noah2Leak, Trip, Swami, none of them post anymore.

He's super into cats now. Its weird.

I just saw BONG last month and I still talk to N2L regularly. Trip is on my facebook. Swami still posts every now and again on the sports board. I can't remember what Tim Blydenburghs handle was on the board, he got married and is a cop in Temple Terrace last I talked to him.

edit: I remember now, GatorRugby.

 

[NavigatorII]

He's super into cats now. Its weird.

I just saw BONG last month and I still talk to N2L regularly. Trip is on my facebook. Swami still posts every now and again on the sports board. I can't remember what Tim Blydenburghs handle was on the board, he got married and is a cop in Temple Terrace last I talked to him.

edit: I remember now, GatorRugby.

I've actually met Trip in person. I'm better friends with his dad, he's got a place down here at the gulf. Good people. Trip lives in Trenton now, moved back from Jacksonville after he left working for the NRA. Not sure what his gig is now. I missed the Soiree on the Suwannee back when that went down. I'm a little older than that crowd and wouldn't fit in. I've got a small circle of friends and I'm just an old salt these days.

 

[EvilWayz]

I've actually met Trip in person. I'm better friends with his dad, he's got a place down here at the gulf. Good people. Trip lives in Trenton now, moved back from Jacksonville after he left working for the NRA. Not sure what his gig is now. I missed the Soiree on the Suwannee back when that went down. I'm a little older than that crowd and wouldn't fit in. I've got a small circle of friends and I'm just an old salt these days.

You missed out I almost got my ass kicked by an entire chapter of Southern Sons MC. One of their women liked my nose piercing and I was a little drunk.

 

[NavigatorII]

You missed out I almost got my ass kicked by an entire chapter of Southern Sons MC. One of their women liked my nose piercing and I was a little drunk.

In Gainesville? I have no idea who Southern Sons is. I have a really hard time believing someone was going to succeed in kicking your ass anyway. Lots of shit goes down in Gainesville in the frat houses, always did, prolly always will. A long time ago a friend of my brother started some shit in a frat house and my brother had to fight his way out of the situation. Meh.... glory days. Wish I had the energy, inclination, or desire to revisit those days. I never cared for any of that, only the gash and ass of the wimmins folk. That flowed like manna from heaven.

 

[EvilWayz]

In Gainesville? I have no idea who Southern Sons is. I have a really hard time believing someone was going to succeed in kicking your ass anyway. Lots of shit goes down in Gainesville in the frat houses, always did, prolly always will. A long time ago a friend of my brother started some shit in a frat house and my brother had to fight his way out of the situation. Meh.... glory days. Wish I had the energy, inclination, or desire to revisit those days. I never cared for any of that, only the gash and ass of the wimmins folk. That flowed like manna from heaven.

This was in Suwannee, we'd just been to a bar where girls were stripping for a chance at a bar tab. We ended up running into the pretty redhead that won at the next bar, and the redhead started hitting on me and I love me some redhead. She was pretty drunk and the local biker gang, Southern Sons was there in force and they did not like the fact that the only brown guy in the place was hitting on one of their ol ladies. Trip rolled up on me and said, quietly " You best tread carefully son, every biker in here is looking at you and they don't look friendly. "

 

[NavigatorII]

This was in Suwannee, we'd just been to a bar where girls were stripping for a chance at a bar tab. We ended up running into the pretty redhead that won at the next bar, and the redhead started hitting on me and I love me some redhead. She was pretty drunk and the local biker gang, Southern Sons was there in force and they did not like the fact that the only brown guy in the place was hitting on one of their ol ladies. Trip rolled up on me and said, quietly " You best tread carefully son, every biker in here is looking at you and they don't look friendly. "

Wow! Here in Suwannee we don't have any poles for girls to dance to. Back about 20 years ago there was a bar in Fanning Springs called The Suwannee Lounge. Many a fight (including knives) had happened there. I think that place ended up a private club called the Lions Den and then ended up a church not long after that (imagine the irony). 😂 There were no bikers that I remember, just 4 wheel drives and slack jawed, slope headed Newberry/Chiefland/Cross City plebes. I could tell you some stories about women we picked up there, but this is somewhat of a family friendly forum.😂

 

[LauderdaleNole]

The red flag thing is a slippery slope. Obviously mentally ill people with a violent history shouldn't be packing guns. The rub here is that "who decides who is competent", and some flaming antigun judge can tee off on anyone they see fit to disarm......and it might just be politics, and have nothing to do with competency.

How long until everyone who doesn't support the far left agenda is branded 'domestic terrorists'?
Judge, Mr Navigator posted 'don't mess with my guns rights' on Instagram and we see from his FFL purchases that he has a few of those Assault Rifle 15's.

 

[BamaFan1137]

Dude, you're a cop. Cops lie in court all the damn time. And you've been to enough DVs to know that women lie too. And most of the time when they do there is no consequence. I was in court last year for a situation I am not going to get into and not one but TWO different chicks testified that they lied to cops when they called them on their domestic partner.


^ That sounds pretty unconstitutional to me. You're depriving me of my 2nd amendment rights and I don't get a lawyer on my day in court?


Being able to unilaterally seize guns is a slippery slope. I've baker acted people and I've been baker acted and that's a pretty flawed system in Florida as well.

Hmmm...we will just have to disagree.

I know of one cop who has lied in court. He was fired and charged with contempt.

Women absolutely lie in court all the time re: DV. But their lie is usually a recant of their initial statement when their husband/boyfriend beat the crap out of them.

I promise you any lie the DV victim tells in court is 10 to 1 that they were NOT abused rather than they WERE abused when they really weren't. When hubby is in jail, he can't work and she can't buy milk for the kids. I was wrong about 10 to 1....it's more like 99 out of 100.

^ That sounds pretty unconstitutional to me. You're depriving me of my 2nd amendment rights and I don't get a lawyer on my day in court?

As you said, it's a civil hearing. Counsel isn’t guaranteed for a civil hearing. However, I've literally NEVER seen a request for counsel denied when it was requested in a civil hearing. Not once.

People who are in the midst of a mental breakdown should not be armed. I don't understand how this can be debated.

 

[fsumc]

People who are in the midst of a mental breakdown should not be armed. I don't understand how this can be debated.

I don’t think there is any debate about that the problem is how it’s determined and who is determining it. Especially after watching a full year of COVID lockdowns and selective law enforcement. Getting on no fly lists without having a clue it’s been done until people are trying to purchase airline tickets. People are losing faith in the system and it’s getting worse because the abuses aren’t exposed like they should be and when they are the officials just double down.

 

[EvilWayz]

People who are in the midst of a mental breakdown should not be armed. I don't understand how this can be debated.

We aren't. What I am debating, which I appear to have forgotten to actually write down is what qualifies a police officer or a judge to make the determination that someone is dangerous to themselves or having a mental breakdown? They aren't doctors, social workers, psychologists or psychiatrists. They simply aren't qualified.

 

[BamaFan1137]

I don’t think there is any debate about that the problem is how it’s determined and who is determining it. Especially after watching a full year of COVID lockdowns and selective law enforcement. Getting on no fly lists without having a clue it’s been done until people are trying to purchase airline tickets. People are losing faith in the system and it’s getting worse because the abuses aren’t exposed like they should be and when they are the officials just double down.

I have no issue with adjusting the process to ensure justice is served and that peoples rights are not being infringed upon unfairly and unconstitutionally. I support the 2nd amendment and love that law-abiding citizens in my county are armed more often than not.

One caveat...the above mentioned adjustment cannot be allowed to make the process so cumbersome as to not protect the public from a deranged and mentally unstable person with access to a deadly weapon.

The former cop I referred to earlier could not respond to the simplest question. He was fine and then a few weeks later he wasn't.

I said to him, "Hey 'John,' I haven't seen you in a while, what have you been up to lately?" His reply was a muddled response of random words. He also answered questions that no one present asked. As in...no one asked a question but he heard one.

This is the type of case I'm referring to and it's not as uncommon as one might think. It's VERY common for those who heavily abuse alcohol over an extended period of time or for those who use certain kinds of drugs, even if only occasionally (water, flaka, meth, ect).

 

[BamaFan1137]

We aren't. What I am debating, which I appear to have forgotten to actually write down is what qualifies a police officer or a judge to make the determination that someone is dangerous to themselves or having a mental breakdown? They aren't doctors, social workers, psychologists or psychiatrists. They simply aren't qualified.

Temporary until a medical professional makes a learned decision on a more permanent basis.

Do I understand your general concern? Absolutely. But it's not a great idea to say, "within the next few weeks we need to determine if this guy, who is seeing aliens and dragons, is ok to possess a weapon."

To make a difference, to be able to save the lives of the innocent, it has to be more flexible than that. Am I qualified to determine if a person is sane? Absolutely not...but I am readily available and I've interacted with an absolute crapload of confirmed crazy people so my opinion is taken in that context on a temporary basis.

 

[kalimgoodman]

This conversation is interesting.

 

[BamaFan1137]

Also, on my seeing aliens comment...

In 2017, a 14 year old girl shot and killed herself because her mom and dad wouldn't let her date some boy. Her mom was a pretty normal person but her dad, who I've known for a while, was always a strange duck. Her grandmother (dads mom) is also very odd.

So after the daughter kills herself, dad starts drinking more and more. In January of this year, he unloaded a 17 round magazine at the rest of his family because they kept turning into aliens right before his eyes and then they would turn back into humans again...but he wasn't fooled.

By the grace of God he didn't hit anyone but he is in jail. He still believes that they turn into aliens and that "this was their plan all along...to get him arrested and persecuted."

His wife noticed his mental decline but she didn't report it to anyone. She knew that he believed she was a part time alien. If she had called us and told us, we could have saved that family a great deal of grief.

 

[EvilWayz]

Temporary until a medical professional makes a learned decision on a more permanent basis.

Do I understand your general concern? Absolutely. But it's not a great idea to say, "within the next few weeks we need to determine if this guy, who is seeing aliens and dragons, is ok to possess a weapon."

To make a difference, to be able to save the lives of the innocent, it has to be more flexible than that. Am I qualified to determine if a person is sane? Absolutely not...but I am readily available and I've interacted with an absolute crapload of confirmed crazy people so my opinion is taken in that context on a temporary basis.

As written, the Florida law doesn't involve medical professionals, at all. Guy is seeing aliens and dragons? Baker Act him. Florida law allows Leos to either search the house and unload all weapons found, or secure them in a gun safe if one is there. They aren't allowed to confiscate them.

I'm not familiar with Alabama law or Law enforcement training, but up until a short time ago I was dual certified in both law enforcement and corrections by the Florida department of law enforcement. My training during both academies was a whopping 80 hours of "interpersonal relations." There's a reason mental health care professionals have college degrees. I find it to be absolutely idiotic that there is no oversight by medical healthcare professionals in the enactment of this law.

At the ass end of my law enforcement career I worked in the security department of North Florida Evaluation and Treatment center, which housed either straight up crazy people or people that were still too crazy to stand trial. I'm familiar with crazy.

 

[BillCutting4585]

Guys, can we Baker Act Biden and strip him of all his powers? He is a danger to himself and the US. 😂😂😂