From 2012-2014 UF signed 5 Rivals 250 WR's and the #1 ranked TE in 2012. Muschamp also signed 4* Ja'Juan Story in 2011. His problem wasn't that he "didn't recruit offensive players". You don't have the #3 and #4 ranked classes in back to back years by not recruiting offense. His problem was that he couldn't do anything with them once he signed them.
Recruiting Panic??
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From 2012-2014 UF signed 5 Rivals 250 WR's and the #1 ranked TE in 2012. Muschamp also signed 4* Ja'Juan Story in 2011. His problem wasn't that he "didn't recruit offensive players". You don't have the #3 and #4 ranked classes in back to back years by not recruiting offense. His problem was that he couldn't do anything with them once he signed them.
Josh McDaniels got fired...Tebow played a role in that.
Keep picking outliers, if it makes you feel better. Analysts had him anywhere from 3rd to Free Agent. None of my opinions are based on being an FSU fan. They were widely held opinions by professionals. None of the home State teams would have drafted him and none had the inkling to pick him up when he was in play, despite the fact that he would sell tickets like crazy. The Bronco's pick was widely panned by analysts when it happened. A significant portion of the teams had him on their board if he changed positions and when he refused, they removed him. The Raiders had him as the last QB taken in the draft. And, just like Jeff Driskel, that is purely based on athletic ability.....not on his skills as a QB.
Tebow was a bigger, modern day Eric Crouch with a LOT more talent around him.
He recruited a few head cases as well as players who couldn't fit his system...some of that was due to poor evaluation and yes much was due to lack of development. I believe this one class of Mc's WR signees will outshine Muschamps WR totals.
Now I know you're talking out your ass. Tebow had nothing to do with McDaniels getting fired. Tebow didn't start until McDaniels got fired. In the three games to close out that season he threw for 600 yards, 4tds, 3 picks, and ran for another 200 and three tds. McDaniels got fired because his video coordinator, same guy from the Pats, got caught videotaping practices again, and McD dragged his feet in the investigation. He had already pissed everybody off in the organization and that was the last straw.
And even if he was projected to be a third rounder, that's not a throwaway pick. Did Eric Crouch get drafted in the third round? And finally, to remove all doubt as to your cluelessness, you cite the Raiders draft projection. They had Jamarcus Russell first. Did you agree with that too?
Obviously we know the answer to the number of FSU qbs to do jack shit in the NFL to this point is zero.
TNNole's cluelessness has been pretty definitively demonstrated at this point. Really, what else do you need to know except he's apparently a 'Nole from Tennessee? His mother probably needs a wet-dry vac to keep his drool under control. But here's additional documentation. Three draft "pros" rating Tebow from a top 10 pick to a third rounder. Of course he was actually drafted in the first round. Please post anything credible backing up your assertion that he was projected to not be drafted.
Brad Johnson went to the Pro Bowl and won a SB.
Jameis went to the Pro Bowl and is already better than any QB you have put in.
Great post.
Did so. Posted facts and figures of each our games, the total defense ranks of our opponents, and our yards and points against those opponents compared to their averages. We actually performed below average (in terms of what those defenses gave up throughout the year) in 3/4 of Grier's starts. By the end of the discussion everyone had pretty much reverted to "well, the offense looked better, I know what my eyes were telling me" since the stats supported none of their points. I don't care to get into it again though. If you guys will flat out disagree with hard data, there's no point.
Brad Johnson. Exception noted. Stretching it a little bit to say he "won" that SB. But he had a good pro career, better than any Gator I can think of. I still stand by the rest of my post, including the part about the guy being a drooling moron.
I didn't address the FSU QB situation because it has absolutely ZERO to do with the conversation. But, it does show you flailing around a fallacious argument, because you don't like an opinion voiced by a Nole...an opinion, by the way, that was shared by many in the NFL before Tebow was drafted ...and now ALL of the NFL. http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/12461/mcdaniels-legacy-is-tebow
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/01/sports/ncaafootball/01sugar.html?_r=0
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The offense was certainly better with Grier at QB than Harris.
Under Grier these were the following offensive stats for his 6 start:
QB rating: 145
Comp % - 65.8
Yards per play: 5.47
PPG: 32.17
Under Harris for his last 6 starts
QB rating: 118
Comp % - 50.6
Yards per play: 4.72
PPG: 18.33
It can certainly be argued that Harris starts were tougher than Grier's but not enough to make up with the lopsided of the stats between the 2. Especially the QB ratings and PPG. Not to mention those were Grier's 1st games ever as a starting QB. Harris already had prior starts from the previous years.
Of course the offense was better under Grier. Grier is still a QB. Harris will either be holding a clipboard this fall or be playing a different position all together.
All in all it really doesn't matter too much because neither will be playing QB at UF anymore.
Under Grier these were the following offensive stats for his 6 start:
QB rating: 145
Comp % - 65.8
Yards per play: 5.47
PPG: 32.17
Under Harris for his last 6 starts
QB rating: 118
Comp % - 50.6
Yards per play: 4.72
PPG: 18.33
It can certainly be argued that Harris starts were tougher than Grier's but not enough to make up with the lopsided of the stats between the 2. Especially the QB ratings and PPG. Not to mention those were Grier's 1st games ever as a starting QB. Harris already had prior starts from the previous years.
Of course the offense was better under Grier. Grier is still a QB. Harris will either be holding a clipboard this fall or be playing a different position all together.
All in all it really doesn't matter too much because neither will be playing QB at UF anymore.
He is like a whirling dervish...at no point did anyone bring up Nole QB's, until he brought it us...it wasn't relevant to the discussion. He didn't like that a widely held opinion about Tebow was being espoused by a Nole, so he brings up irrelevant points to try to steer the discussion somewhere else and claim victory. ...can't even do that now and you are to blame!
It is amusing to me that I share an opinion that was held by many outside of Tallahassee and Gainesville and for some reason it makes him mad as hell at me....the tilt at a windmill du jour, I guess.
Why are you discussing individual performance when talking about the offense's performance as a whole? Once again you guys try to change the argument, no one is arguing Harris is better than Grier. We are discussing the relative performance of the offense under both.
Also, those numbers are wrong. Grier started ECU, UK, UT, Ole Miss, and Mizzou and we scored a combined 132 points in those game, or 26.4 PPG, not 32. Harris started the rest and we scored a combined 193 points, or 21.4 PPG. A little more than a FG difference. Which looks better on the surface until you realize that of the 5 best defenses we played all year, 4 of them occurred during the games Harris started.
The best defense we faced in the games Grier started was Mizzou at 6. Under Harris we faced Bama (2), Michigan (4), UGA (7), FSU (19), and LSU (25). Five top 25 defenses as opposed to 1 the first few games. We averaged 5 yards per play under Grier, 4.8 under Harris. The difference is negligible. The only difference between the offense earlier on and what you saw to end the year was the quality of the opponent. Also note that the 2/3 of our highest total offense performances came under Harris.
The offense wasn't good regardless of who the QB was. I know, I know...Ole Miss! Their pass defense was 100th in the country. They weren't good.
Also, those numbers are wrong. Grier started ECU, UK, UT, Ole Miss, and Mizzou and we scored a combined 132 points in those game, or 26.4 PPG, not 32. Harris started the rest and we scored a combined 193 points, or 21.4 PPG. A little more than a FG difference. Which looks better on the surface until you realize that of the 5 best defenses we played all year, 4 of them occurred during the games Harris started.
The best defense we faced in the games Grier started was Mizzou at 6. Under Harris we faced Bama (2), Michigan (4), UGA (7), FSU (19), and LSU (25). Five top 25 defenses as opposed to 1 the first few games. We averaged 5 yards per play under Grier, 4.8 under Harris. The difference is negligible. The only difference between the offense earlier on and what you saw to end the year was the quality of the opponent. Also note that the 2/3 of our highest total offense performances came under Harris.
The offense wasn't good regardless of who the QB was. I know, I know...Ole Miss! Their pass defense was 100th in the country. They weren't good.
Oozie, if your goal is to change the hearts and minds...well, you probably can invest your time better else where. It is natural for fans to craft a narrative and die by it until all facts and arrows point otherwise. They need to have hope. Harris is terrible...Muschamp can't recruit....Muschamp was a devil worshiper...McElwain is the Lord of Light and can will 3 star players to greatness...Gators would have been playing for Natty had Grier not been duped in to taking illegal cough medicine (I heard the Publix seafood guy is now a CVS pharmacist in Gainesville)....Stars don't matter.
It is par for the course in Nole World, too.. Some have their entire identity in these teams and they have to be able to believe. Their very existence depends on it.
It is par for the course in Nole World, too.. Some have their entire identity in these teams and they have to be able to believe. Their very existence depends on it.
You are really spending a lot of time and energy on a Gators board trying to convince Gator fans that we should be pessimistic. Why do you care about this so much?
In addition to this, PPG is a flawed method of isolating offensive performance. It incorporates special teams scores, points off turnovers and short fields, etc. Most analysts go with average yards per play, which is why I mentioned it above.
I'm not mad at you, I just dislike sloppy arguments. The other guy, your protector, posted a fact that countered what I said: Brad Johnson was a good pro. And I conceded that point. On the other hand, you just post your opinions as fact and support them with meaningless generalities (Tebow was projected not to be drafted, Tebow got McDaniels fired, etc...). It's this kind of reasoning that is making us stupider as a people, so I try to point it out wherever possible in hopes of reversing the trend. Unfortunately, with every liberal arts degree granted by FSU, the task gets more difficult.
Average yards per play:
Grier - 5.47
Harris - 4.72
The offense took a pretty big hit when Grier got suspended because NOBODY was scared or respected Treon's arm strength or passing accuracy.
Just an FYI but a 32 PPG under Grier vs an 18 PPG under Harris is a HUGE discrepancy. That's 14 less points. That's very very big.
This is case in point. You have posted these, apparently, to support your points that: "Analysts had him anywhere from 3rd to Free Agent,"; and that "Josh McDaniels got fired...Tebow played a role in that."
But neither article says anything in support of those points. The furthest the ESPN article goes is to say that he wouldn't be a first rounder. And the second article, about McDaniels, was written before the 2010 season, before Tebow ever took a snap. Here's an article detailing why McDaniels was fired. You'll notice Tebow's name isn't mentioned, but the reasons I cited are. For future reference, the trick is to do the reading before you state your opinions.
I don't care about Tebow, FSU QB's, NFL, or any of the such in this argument.
I'm still thinking we should see how McElwain's recruiting approach works before we should "panic" as the title suggests.
I know Will Muschamp had some high ranked classes during his tenure. Yes most of his downfall is due to lack of development on the offense side of the ball. I also think some of it was poor evaluation. Especially poor character evaluation mixed in with offering a player who really didn't fit his system.
The only thing I am worried about to this point (still plenty of time left) is McElwain's numbers at OL and DT. I know right now we have descent numbers at those positions but that part could be better.
I believe his WR, QB, and RB recruits will surpass Muschamp's hands down.
I do like his approach of finding the guy he is comfortable with and offering him early without reading some rankings.Yes the jury is still out on Trask as well as the RB from Alabama. He jumped on him early, Saban did not. Saban came on really strong but did not get him. This is just an area right now where we have to trust the coaches. It really is. If it fails, then panic.
I'm still thinking we should see how McElwain's recruiting approach works before we should "panic" as the title suggests.
I know Will Muschamp had some high ranked classes during his tenure. Yes most of his downfall is due to lack of development on the offense side of the ball. I also think some of it was poor evaluation. Especially poor character evaluation mixed in with offering a player who really didn't fit his system.
The only thing I am worried about to this point (still plenty of time left) is McElwain's numbers at OL and DT. I know right now we have descent numbers at those positions but that part could be better.
I believe his WR, QB, and RB recruits will surpass Muschamp's hands down.
I do like his approach of finding the guy he is comfortable with and offering him early without reading some rankings.Yes the jury is still out on Trask as well as the RB from Alabama. He jumped on him early, Saban did not. Saban came on really strong but did not get him. This is just an area right now where we have to trust the coaches. It really is. If it fails, then panic.
There are excellent reasons why multi-millionair coaches DON'T use recruit ranking services to choose their players for them. (nuff-said) 
Please provide a source for these numbers because they are blatantly incorrect as I've shown above. Where are you getting 32 PPG under Grier from?
The games he started we scored the following:
ECU: 31
UK- 14
UT: 28
Ole Miss: 38
Mizzou: 21
This is basic math.
There are excellent reasons why multi-millionair coaches DON'T use recruit ranking services to choose their players for them. (nuff-said)
There is also a reason the top recruiting teams finish atop the season too
It's 26.4 vs. 21.4, not 18. That's less than a TD difference. That isn't a noteworthy especially when taking into account our awful special teams and the difference in quality of defenses faced. Hardin makes a few more FG's and the PPG is the same. Harris also faced 5 top 25 defenses, Grier faced 1. And despite that the yards per play were basically the same, 5 for Grier vs. 4.8 for Harris. There wasn't some glaring difference between the offenses with either. It was bad regardless. We just feasted on shit defenses to start the year.
Ok the guy takes over the 94th ranked class and turns it into a top 25 class. Add in the underrated gems such as Antonio Callaway and Kylan Johnson. His second year he improves it to a top 15 class.
So we should panic and act like little bitches?
We are saying he should instantly go from top 25 to top two because two failures at head coach and one great coach did it. Two of those coaches did this over a decade ago.
All I can say is before we panic let's see if he is finding the right guys.
So we should panic and act like little bitches?
We are saying he should instantly go from top 25 to top two because two failures at head coach and one great coach did it. Two of those coaches did this over a decade ago.
All I can say is before we panic let's see if he is finding the right guys.
But in turn some coaches who chased rankings over character and fits for the system have been fired/forced to retire as well.
Fulmer, Coker, Muschamp, Richt, and more.
There are excellent reasons why multi-millionair coaches DON'T use recruit ranking services to choose their players for them. (nuff-said)
But you do. In fact you have gone out of your way to Tout ESPN’s recruiting rankings. You cant have it both ways.
Certainly I can. On this board, having it both ways is the standard.
I talk about ESPN being the smartest idiots on the recruit ranking service dog&pony show.
But I'll always take my coaches choices on who deserves to be a Gator, over any of the service ranking, every day and twice on Saturday's!
Most recent/best example - Trask ** by recruit ranking, Trask ***** by Mc-Nuss.
The influx of Nole fans telling us how we should agree with them and be pessimistic.
No.
Are you really trying to make the point that the offense run by Grier was just as bad as the offense run by Harris.
Really?
You guys seem to be smart men. But you have a raging blind spot here.
If you want to make the point that McE's offense did not adjust to the reality of Harris, I will agree with you.
If you want to make the point that McE had a disappointing close to the 2016 recruiting season, I will agree with you.
But if you are trying to make the point that the offense under Grier and the offense under Harris were equally shitty, well then you are dumber than the dumbest FSU fans that post here. And that is a low, low bar.
Yes. Numbers lie apparently. Who knew? Argue with the facts presented in this thread or stick with the ole 'eye test' makes no difference to me. I'd roll with the eye test bs if the facts didn't agree with me either.
One more time for you MJ...
The offense averaged 26.4 PPG under Grier and 21.4 PPG under Harris. little morethan a FG difference. Which looks better on the surface until you realize that of the 5 best defenses we played all year, Harris faced 4 of them.
The best defense we faced in the games Grier started was Mizzou at 6. Under Harris we faced Bama (2), Michigan (4), UGA (7), FSU (19), and LSU (25). That's 5 top 25 defenses faced by Harris as opposed to 1 faced by Grier. We averaged 5 yards per play under Grier, 4.8 under Harris. The difference is negligible especially considering one QB faced much better defenses.
So yes, logic dictates that if you think the offense was bad under Harris then you must also think the offense was bad under Grier considering the output of the offense under both is basically the same. Any difference between the two is negligible despite one QB facing much better competition than the other So yea there is a dumb side in this argument and few people, except this board apparently, would think the side bringing facts to the table is the dumb one. But carry on with the narrative you've created. Eye test and feelings>>>facts. Now that's not dumb.
/end sarcasm
The offense averaged 26.4 PPG under Grier and 21.4 PPG under Harris. little morethan a FG difference. Which looks better on the surface until you realize that of the 5 best defenses we played all year, Harris faced 4 of them.
The best defense we faced in the games Grier started was Mizzou at 6. Under Harris we faced Bama (2), Michigan (4), UGA (7), FSU (19), and LSU (25). That's 5 top 25 defenses faced by Harris as opposed to 1 faced by Grier. We averaged 5 yards per play under Grier, 4.8 under Harris. The difference is negligible especially considering one QB faced much better defenses.
So yes, logic dictates that if you think the offense was bad under Harris then you must also think the offense was bad under Grier considering the output of the offense under both is basically the same. Any difference between the two is negligible despite one QB facing much better competition than the other So yea there is a dumb side in this argument and few people, except this board apparently, would think the side bringing facts to the table is the dumb one. But carry on with the narrative you've created. Eye test and feelings>>>facts. Now that's not dumb.
/end sarcasm
What we saw on offense isn't the least bit difficult to understand if you have a clue as to what you're looking at. We couldn't run the ball all year...see pathetic YPC averages of 2.9, 3.2, etc. against the likes of UK, ECU, and those type of ball clubs. Against lesser defenses you can overcome that some with a quick, timing pass game...see offense under Grier.
But against better defenses if you can't run the ball you aren't moving the ball...even with a good QB much less a mediocre one. You become one dimensional and are constantly stuck in 3rd and long which makes you predictable and you're having to constantly throw into nickel and dime coverage. You're not gonna move the ball consistently unde those situations against good defenses. And that's what we saw the second half of the year. Rather than realizing the root cause of the struggle idiots put all the blame on the QB.
It really isn't complicated. We had fatal flaws on offense, the bad defenses we faced to start the year couldn't take full advantage of em, the good ones we faced could. I do believe the offense would have been better with Grier as he progressed, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have looked just as bad at times. It DID look just as bad at times to start the year even against shit defenses. That's what happens when you can't run the ball consistently and can't pass block on top of it. But hey maybe Grier was going to be able to go out there against top 10 defenses and throw 30+ times to will us to victory with no run game and no pass blocking from an oline that at one point was down 3 starters. Seems logical, it happens ALL the time.
But against better defenses if you can't run the ball you aren't moving the ball...even with a good QB much less a mediocre one. You become one dimensional and are constantly stuck in 3rd and long which makes you predictable and you're having to constantly throw into nickel and dime coverage. You're not gonna move the ball consistently unde those situations against good defenses. And that's what we saw the second half of the year. Rather than realizing the root cause of the struggle idiots put all the blame on the QB.
It really isn't complicated. We had fatal flaws on offense, the bad defenses we faced to start the year couldn't take full advantage of em, the good ones we faced could. I do believe the offense would have been better with Grier as he progressed, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have looked just as bad at times. It DID look just as bad at times to start the year even against shit defenses. That's what happens when you can't run the ball consistently and can't pass block on top of it. But hey maybe Grier was going to be able to go out there against top 10 defenses and throw 30+ times to will us to victory with no run game and no pass blocking from an oline that at one point was down 3 starters. Seems logical, it happens ALL the time.
It's not all the oline. Just like it isn't all the QB. Fans can understand that though. They've deluded themselves into thinking it's just about the QB because we managed to be mediocre against some shitty defenses to start the year. Hopelessly ignorant.
Of course...fans be fans. All the dumb coach needs to do is put the next guy in and everything will be ok. If the coach would just LISTEN to them! OL...that takes a long time to fix (insert fingers in ears...lalalalalalalal)
And, to address the other person talking about how early it is in the process of recruiting. You are wrong. Urban Meyer changed recruiting. You are not at the beginning. You are dead in the middle to the beginning of the end. You have two months bw now and when camp starts to get commits....recruiting grinds to a halt during the season. Very few commits happen during the season with players and coaches too busy...recruiting goes wild at the end of the last game of the season until the middle of December when the NCAA shuts it down..and then it opens up again the day after the Championship game, the 2nd week of January. Combined, there is a little over 3 months left in recruiting season....not a lot of time to make up gaps.
One of the ranking services released the list of top 25 uncommitted recruits. Every one of your rivals from Bama to FSU to LSU (with a lame duck coach) to Ole Miss had multiple players that favored the respective team....UF had exactly...zero. UGa had 4....I have never seen less top players interest in UF...this goes back decades of following recruiting.
