So the country is "systemically racist" but Biden & Harris now say the people are not racist. What is that?

[BamaFan1137]

I linked something about housing. Blacks are far more likely to get rejected for a loan. It's not even close.

And that means it's systemically racist? Of course it doesn't.

Now, if you can show me where the credit scores were the same and the income to debt ratios were same and black people STILL were denied more often than whites, THAT would be systemic racism. What you showed me was a statistic...nothing more, nothing less.

Education is about opportunity, blacks get accepted at a lower rate despite having the same or identical GPA, test scores, etc. There is plenty of data about all of this out here.

Calling bullshit on this one. Show your work. What you described would be an actual civil rights violation...so probably not standard admissions process, agree?

Many universities use a point system when considering who to accept and who to deny. You get a point for being a minority. You get no points for being white.

 

[BCSpell]

I think in education and housing. Now if you ask the hard core left, they think it's everything. So my opinion won't match what you hear on liberal TV.

I know, different perspectives. I can see education and housing practices being racist in the past, but you really feel they still are?

 

[BamaFan1137]

I know, different perspectives. I can see education and housing practices being racist in the past, but you really feel they still are?

If they are, the lawsuits will be writing themselves.

 

[BamaFan1137]

When you buy a house, even you as the buyer have to sign something acknowledging the Fair Housing Act. Assuming that you are financing, you'll be signing the same acknowledgment again.

And again, you're signing this as the buyer. It's a warning...if the seller, the bank or the real estate agent are being racist pricks, that warning is literally telling you that they cannot do that and then it tells you who to contact if they are in fact being racist pricks.

This is systemic racism? What in the entire Fk???

 

[kalimgoodman]

I know, different perspectives. I can see education and housing practices being racist in the past, but you really feel they still are?

Housing more than education. Blacks still have a high loan rejection rate.

 

[BillCutting4585]

I think in education and housing. Now if you ask the hard core left, they think it's everything. So my opinion won't match what you hear on liberal TV.

Is it the curriculum that is systemic? Is it the education standards? Opportunity?

I think it’s absolutely ridiculous that you have to list race on any form. It’s used to group people together for statistical information which then gets politicized.

However, I don’t know much about creditors not giving credit to black Americans in favor of white Americans. I would think with corporate America becoming more politicized everyday that you might see a change in the lending practices that benefits black Americans. I’m not a creditor however, just a guess.

 

[kalimgoodman]

I know, different perspectives. I can see education and housing practices being racist in the past, but you really feel they still are?

Housing more than education. Blacks still have a high loan rejection

And that means it's systemically racist? Of course it doesn't.

Now, if you can show me where the credit scores were the same and the income to debt ratios were same and black people STILL were denied more often than whites, THAT would be systemic racism. What you showed me was a statistic...nothing more, nothing less.




Calling bullshit on this one. Show your work. What you described would be an actual civil rights violation...so probably not standard admissions process, agree?

Many universities use a point system when considering who to accept and who to deny. You get a point for being a minority. You get no points for being white.

See you're looking for excuses. So there is nothing I can show you to think differently. I'm convinced that no matter what I link you'll have excuses for the data. I'm aware that conservative white men are most stubborn on race. They hate hearing that race is a problem.

The real challenge is, show me data saying blacks are gets loans equal to whites. You guys ask me to provide data, I provide then you want more data. Time to flip this, provide data that housing isn't racist, education isn't racist instead of going by what you think/feel. I know I'm not going to change minds as bill tells me and I'm ok with that. At the same time, I have no issue providing different prospective.

 

[kalimgoodman]

Is it the curriculum that is systemic? Is it the education standards? Opportunity?

I think it’s absolutely ridiculous that you have to list race on any form. It’s used to group people together for statistical information which then gets politicized.

However, I don’t know much about creditors not giving credit to black Americans in favor of white Americans. I would think with corporate America becoming more politicized everyday that you might see a change in the lending practices that benefits black Americans. I’m not a creditor however, just a guess.

You'll be surprised by creditors. Education is related to college.

 

[BillCutting4585]

You'll be surprised by creditors. Education is related to college.

College is absolutely useless unless the degree is in STEM or business and business is pushing it. College is an expensive experience designed to make people in debt to the government even more.

ALL people are better off in a trade school where a good living and a great craft can be learned.

Just my opinion

 

[Mdfgator]

I linked something about housing. Blacks are far more likely to get rejected for a loan. It's not even close. Education is about opportunity, blacks get accepted at a lower rate despite having the same or identical GPA, test scores, etc. There is plenty of data about all of this out here.

Parenting makes high school, Parenting have zero to do with getting into college, unless they are rich and famous.

Now once again, when I say this, I'm not saying there isn't progress or things isn't better than 1965. American has made great progress and that's why it's not racist but there is still work to be done.

Did you look at the study? Were they denied more because of color or other tangible financial metrics? Applying for a loan is a financial issue. Now if you're saying blacks are less financially succesful than whites on average and thus cannot buy things as easily we could then discuss why that is. But saying a system is racist doesn't mean anything.

 

[fsumc]

Housing more than education. Blacks still have a high loan rejection

See you're looking for excuses. So there is nothing I can show you to think differently. I'm convinced that no matter what I link you'll have excuses for the data. I'm aware that conservative white men are most stubborn on race. They hate hearing that race is a problem.

The real challenge is, show me data saying blacks are gets loans equal to whites. You guys ask me to provide data, I provide then you want more data. Time to flip this, provide data that housing isn't racist, education isn't racist instead of going by what you think/feel. I know I'm not going to change minds as bill tells me and I'm ok with that. At the same time, I have no issue providing different prospective.

This is such a terrible cop out. When you take data that says “more Y is rejected than X” and you’re dealing with something that takes more than one variable into consideration you absolutely owe a deeper look into the data. Otherwise you aren’t honestly trying to find truth or you’re gullible.

 

[Orangeclad]

What don't you understand? It makes sense to me. America is not racist now but we have some systems that was built on racism that makes it harder for black people. I would expand that to sexism too. America was built for only white men to be successful. With amendments and new laws, it opened up chances for white woman and people of color but those systems still haven't been completely fix. Woman couldn't vote until 1920 and blacks couldn't vote without barriers until 1965.

It would be like building a relationship on a lie. You may not be lying now but the foundation of the relationship is a lie and that lie can impact parts of the relationship.

Kalim, I would think you would be very unhappy or even angry with the American education system long before kids reach college age, particularly in the black community. There are very few issues that receive as much bipartisan support from the American people as does school CHOICE, as evidenced by the excerpt of survey results from USA Today shown below. And who's against school choice? The democrats who are so wedded to the powerful teachers unions and who do not want to give parents opportunities to get their kids out of crappy public schools, particularly in the inner city. Now we even find out the CDC takes orders from the teachers unions.


Survey after survey shows bipartisan public support for school choice policies, notably among families with the most at stake in our education system.

According to a survey of likely 2020 voters, Democrats for Education Reform (DFER) found that 81% of voters — including 81% of Democratic primary voters and 89% of black Democratic primary voters — support expanding “access to more choices and options within the public school system, including magnet schools, career academies and public charter schools.”

A recent EdChoice public opinion survey found that 78% of Democrats agreed with 78% of Republicans and 77% of independents in favoring education savings accounts, which let families access money usually funneled to school districts to spend on education-related expenses for their child. Current school parents were 85% in favor of ESAs, as were 78% of African Americans and 79% of Hispanic respondents.

 

[Dr. Curmudgeon]

I think in education and housing. Now if you ask the hard core left, they think it's everything. So my opinion won't match what you hear on liberal TV.

I taught in the public school system and I was one of two Caucasian teachers there. I can't see how that was racist except the way I was attacked by certain students for being white. We can't just throw money at a problem we need to roll up our sleeves and try to make a difference in the lives of these children if the parents/guardians refuse to.

 

[Dr. Curmudgeon]

This is such a terrible cop out. When you take data that says “more Y is rejected than X” and you’re dealing with something that takes more than one variable into consideration you absolutely owe a deeper look into the data. Otherwise you aren’t honestly trying to find truth or you’re gullible.

Here's a stat you won't find on cnn or fox. 14% of the population are committing 70% of the crime.

 

[BCSpell]

Housing more than education. Blacks still have a high loan rejection rate.

Could it be how they perceive themself financially speaking? I didn't become a home owner until I was 47 yo because I never beleived financially speaking that I could afford to own. I knew that there were a lot more expenses than just the cost/loan. I was afraid that if I bought now, maybe 2, 5, 10 years down the road I might lose it because I could not afford it. I didn't want to go through that or put my family through that. It's been almost 6 years now, and it still is a struggle at times and I do lose sleep occassionally.

 

[kalimgoodman]

This is such a terrible cop out. When you take data that says “more Y is rejected than X” and you’re dealing with something that takes more than one variable into consideration you absolutely owe a deeper look into the data. Otherwise you aren’t honestly trying to find truth or you’re gullible.

There is no perfect study. Everyone finds issues with every study, article, comment, etc...

 

[kalimgoodman]

Could it be how they perceive themself financially speaking? I didn't become a home owner until I was 47 yo because I never beleived financially speaking that I could afford to own. I knew that there were a lot more expenses than just the cost/loan. I was afraid that if I bought now, maybe 2, 5, 10 years down the road I might lose it because I could not afford it. I didn't want to go through that or put my family through that. It's been almost 6 years now, and it still is a struggle at times and I do lose sleep occassionally.

That's past my knowledge. Of course there could be alot of factors involved.

 

[kalimgoodman]

Kalim, I would think you would be very unhappy or even angry with the American education system long before kids reach college age, particularly in the black community. There are very few issues that receive as much bipartisan support from the American people as does school CHOICE, as evidenced by the excerpt of survey results from USA Today shown below. And who's against school choice? The democrats who are so wedded to the powerful teachers unions and who do not want to give parents opportunities to get their kids out of crappy public schools, particularly in the inner city. Now we even find out the CDC takes orders from the teachers unions.


Survey after survey shows bipartisan public support for school choice policies, notably among families with the most at stake in our education system.

According to a survey of likely 2020 voters, Democrats for Education Reform (DFER) found that 81% of voters — including 81% of Democratic primary voters and 89% of black Democratic primary voters — support expanding “access to more choices and options within the public school system, including magnet schools, career academies and public charter schools.”

A recent EdChoice public opinion survey found that 78% of Democrats agreed with 78% of Republicans and 77% of independents in favoring education savings accounts, which let families access money usually funneled to school districts to spend on education-related expenses for their child. Current school parents were 85% in favor of ESAs, as were 78% of African Americans and 79% of Hispanic respondents.

Great data, I'm not opposed to trying anything to improve education. I think besides the teachers unions, more money overall needs to go into poor schools. We can't just write them off.

 

[GhostOfMatchesMalone]

Here's a stat you won't find on cnn or fox. 14% of the population are committing 70% of the crime.

The one time the left doesn't want to talk about skin color.

 

[fsumc]

There is no perfect study. Everyone finds issues with every study, article, comment, etc...

Keep lecturing people here about confirmation bias. This is why I rarely interact with you. You’re not a serious person, you throw a bone out every so often to look like you’re objective but you’re not. You are literally taking a macro stat and not bothering to look any further and the case is settled for you. You’re complaining about education and brag about voting for democrats, the same people that have been running education and ruined education in this country since the DOE was established by Jimmy Carter. You keep voting for the perpetual problems you’re complaining about. The problem isn’t the system in that scenario, the problem is you.

 

[kalimgoodman]

Keep lecturing people here about confirmation bias. This is why I rarely interact with you. You’re not a serious person, you throw a bone out every so often to look like you’re objective but you’re not. You are literally taking a macro stat and not bothering to look any further and the case is settled for you. You’re complaining about education and brag about voting for democrats, the same people that have been running education and ruined education in this country since the DOE was established by Jimmy Carter. You keep voting for the perpetual problems you’re complaining about. The problem isn’t the system in that scenario, the problem is you.

Systemic issues is bipartisan. You guys who keep bringing up the democrats doesn't get it. Nobody is saying the democrats is not at fault. So why are you bringing up the democrats?

 

[fsumc]

Systemic issues is bipartisan. You guys who keep bringing up the democrats doesn't get it. Nobody is saying the democrats is not at fault. So why are you bringing up the democrats?

Do you need to reread what I wrote? I can wait a few minutes if you need to edit.

 

[BCSpell]

Great data, I'm not opposed to trying anything to improve education. I think besides the teachers unions, more money overall needs to go into poor schools. We can't just write them

One of the biggest problems with the poor schools is the City, County and State Governments that are in control of the $. Nothing will change until people are voted in that want to make change.

 

[fsumc]

One of the biggest problems with the poor schools is the City, County and State Governments that are in control of the $. Nothing will change until people are voted in that want to make change.

No no. Don’t point that out. Because he doesn’t want to look into the actual causes of these issues because that may lead to a narrative disruption.

 

[GhostOfMatchesMalone]

This is such a terrible cop out. When you take data that says “more Y is rejected than X” and you’re dealing with something that takes more than one variable into consideration you absolutely owe a deeper look into the data. Otherwise you aren’t honestly trying to find truth or you’re gullible.

Yep, and it hurts minorities, which is what the dems live to do.

 

[GhostOfMatchesMalone]

Keep lecturing people here about confirmation bias. This is why I rarely interact with you. You’re not a serious person, you throw a bone out every so often to look like you’re objective but you’re not.

This. He's a troll and a bad one at that. Every time I respond, even to mock him, I come closer to never doing so again.

 

[fsumc]

This. He's a troll and a bad one at that. Every time I respond, even to mock him, I come closer to never doing so again.

I was leaving him and BSC alone for a while too but every now and then my temerity gets the better of me.

 

[Orangeclad]

One of the biggest problems with the poor schools is the City, County and State Governments that are in control of the $. Nothing will change until people are voted in that want to make change.

I would like the money in control of gov't be given directly to families to allow them to make the choice of schooling for their children. What is disturbing is where our country ranks in the world in per capita spending per child and where our children rank in the world in proficiency. It ain't the amount of money being spent. Something is very wrong with the system.

 

[kalimgoodman]

One of the biggest problems with the poor schools is the City, County and State Governments that are in control of the $. Nothing will change until people are voted in that want to make change.

That's part of the defund the police movement. Less to cops, more to schools.

 

[GhostOfMatchesMalone]

I was leaving him and BSC alone for a while too but every now and then my temerity gets the better of me.

It's really the same person, in more ways than one. Neither is really worth attention here or offline. That's why they are so desperate for it.

 

[kalimgoodman]

No no. Don’t point that out. Because he doesn’t want to look into the actual causes of these issues because that may lead to a narrative disruption.

You seriously don't get it and isn't even close. The causes of systemic issues come from blacks being slaves and not being allowed to go to school or learn, and then when they were freed... They were giving the weaker education route to ensure that they would never get to the top or have a real struggle to get there. That's why you had segregated schools to control what white people learned and what black people learned. They didn't have the same curriculum. So because of that, it made it difficult for blacks to get into college and pass the SAT. That's why you had HBCUs because they were the only way for blacks to learn post high school. Then the 1965 Civil rights act was passed to close the gap. Some places fought it with lawsuits until the 80s and there were still places segregated as of 2000. So you seriously think America was able to undo all of that in 50 years and in some places 20 years? That system was created by Democrats and Republicans.

If want to talk about today and how to fix the system, ok but systemic issues were created when America was created. The system was bad under Jame Monroe, Andrew Jackson, JFK, Reagan, Clinton, all of them. If you don't understand that then oh well.

Just don't try to tell me it's Hillary fault when she wasn't even born when slavery was created.

 

[GhostOfMatchesMalone]

You seriously don't get it and isn't even close. The causes of systemic issues come from blacks being slaves and not being allowed to go to school or learn, and then when they were freed... They were giving the weaker education route to ensure that they would never get to the top or have a real struggle to get there. That's why you had segregated schools to control what white people learned and what black people learned. They didn't have the same curriculum. So because of that, it made it difficult for blacks to get into college and pass the SAT. That's why you had HBCUs because they were the only way for blacks to learn post high school. Then the 1965 Civil rights act was passed to close the gap. Some places fought it with lawsuits until the 80s and there were still places segregated as of 2000. So you seriously think America was able to undo all of that in 50 years and in some places 20 years? That system was created by Democrats and Republicans.

If want to talk about today and how to fix the system, ok but systemic issues were created when America was created. The system was bad under Jame Monroe, Andrew Jackson, JFK, Reagan, Clinton, all of them. If you don't understand that then oh well.

Just don't try to tell me it's Hillary fault when she wasn't even born when slavery was created.

This might be the dumbest horseshit I've ever read.

 

[BCSpell]

That's part of the defund the police movement. Less to cops, more to schools.

I could be totally wrong, but I beleive, if the people running the cities and counties wanted $ for education, they would have $. It wouldn't have to come from "defund the police". It's not an either or situation.

 

[kalimgoodman]

I could be totally wrong, but I beleive, if the people running the cities and counties wanted $ for education, they would have $. It wouldn't have to come from "defund the police". It's not an either or situation.

Could be true. I don't like defund the police and I haven't looked into that. I was just saying that defund the police is trying to help solve a problem you mentioned.

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

I met some french engineering students in college and they were breezing through a class. It was a redo for them since they had already had it back home. I was floored with our discussion. First of course they are sending their smartest over for exchange. However, their complaint was not what I expected because i figured these guys studied all day everyday and all the time.

They were tired of all the homework. (Jaw drops) what? All the top guys in my engineering classes breathed ate and slept their classes. Not these two! They were in the lobby watching TV for hours.

Me: why do you think you are ahead of us in your studies?

French guy 1: You guys do way too much homework!

Me: What? That makes no sense!

French guy 2: We approach college like a job. We go from 8-5 to class. Our professors have us do our work in class and we have many more hands on labs. This class we have with you, we already had freshman year. We do not have a lot of homework. Your professors do not teach anything. Ours do.

Me: Wow.
(In my head): Our educators are lazy and/or are following a less productive learning model.
If your kid is coming home with piles of homework then IMHO the educator is lazy and is not doing enough in the classroom.

Their model is geared towards producing engineers out of anyone who can enter the school.

Our model is to only graduate the cream and weed out the rest. It was quite an eye opener.

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

I met some french engineering students in college and they were breezing through a class. It was a redo for them since they had already had it back home. I was floored with our discussion. First of course they are sending their smartest over for exchange. However, their complaint was not what I expected because i figured these guys studied all day everyday and all the time.

They were tired of all the homework. (Jaw drops) what? All the top guys in my engineering classes breathed ate and slept their classes. Not these two! They were in the lobby watching TV for hours.

Me: why do you think you are ahead of us in your studies?

French guy 1: You guys do way too much homework!

Me: What? That makes no sense!

French guy 2: We approach college like a job. We go from 8-5 to class. Our professors have us do our work in class and we have many more hands on labs. This class we have with you, we already had freshman year. We do not have a lot of homework. Your professors do not teach anything. Ours do.

Me: Wow.
(In my head): Our educators are lazy and/or are following a less productive learning model.
If your kid is coming home with piles of homework then IMHO the educator is lazy and is not doing enough in the classroom.

Their model is geared towards producing engineers out of anyone who can enter the school.

Our model is to only graduate the cream and weed out the rest. It was quite an eye opener.

Imagine if you will a kid spending 2 1/3 hrs a day per class working in on Reading, Writing and Math until middle school. Reading and Writing could be merged with History and exposure to a foreign language. Imagine the average 9th grader entering with at least Algebra 1 finished and some advanced enough to be taking pre-Calculus.

 

[fsumc]

You seriously don't get it and isn't even close. The causes of systemic issues come from blacks being slaves and not being allowed to go to school or learn, and then when they were freed... They were giving the weaker education route to ensure that they would never get to the top or have a real struggle to get there. That's why you had segregated schools to control what white people learned and what black people learned. They didn't have the same curriculum. So because of that, it made it difficult for blacks to get into college and pass the SAT. That's why you had HBCUs because they were the only way for blacks to learn post high school. Then the 1965 Civil rights act was passed to close the gap. Some places fought it with lawsuits until the 80s and there were still places segregated as of 2000. So you seriously think America was able to undo all of that in 50 years and in some places 20 years? That system was created by Democrats and Republicans.

If want to talk about today and how to fix the system, ok but systemic issues were created when America was created. The system was bad under Jame Monroe, Andrew Jackson, JFK, Reagan, Clinton, all of them. If you don't understand that then oh well.

Just don't try to tell me it's Hillary fault when she wasn't even born when slavery was created.

Nice history lesson but how is the system currently racist, a charge you have made and are bringing up the politics of 1800 to justify that accusation? Are you currently a piece of shit because your relative from 1734 was a piece of shit?

Saying blacks are behind in education is an unfortunate reality. But the system itself right now favors blacks over every other demographic. We have a specific law on the books catering to black people. Colleges have been caught taking points away from Asian and white kids. The system has adapted and has attempted to adjust course (terribly but that’s a different topic) for past actions. How is that racist?

Does black culture value education? If the system has changed maybe the problem isn’t the system. And that’s the point, continuously voting for the same people/groups and things don’t change for the better the system is no longer the apparatus that needs focus.

You can pretend this isn’t a political issue and I wish it wasn’t but the education leaders in this country are elected officials from the local level all the way up to the federal level. And the Democrats have had a stranglehold on education, especially the liberal arts, for decades. This isn’t even a debatable point. Look at where teacher union donations go. Anywhere between 70-85% of teachers are Democrats. Education is absolutely a political issue because it isn’t a bipartisan controlled issue.

 

[nothergator]

Great data, I'm not opposed to trying anything to improve education. I think besides the teachers unions, more money overall needs to go into poor schools. We can't just write them off.

Throwing more money at the problem will do what?

 

[kalimgoodman]

Throwing more money at the problem will do what?

Yeah probably not the idea...

 

[kalimgoodman]

Nice history lesson but how is the system currently racist, a charge you have made and are bringing up the politics of 1800 to justify that accusation? Are you currently a piece of shit because your relative from 1734 was a piece of shit?

Saying blacks are behind in education is an unfortunate reality. But the system itself right now favors blacks over every other demographic. We have a specific law on the books catering to black people. Colleges have been caught taking points away from Asian and white kids. The system has adapted and has attempted to adjust course (terribly but that’s a different topic) for past actions. How is that racist?

Does black culture value education? If the system has changed maybe the problem isn’t the system. And that’s the point, continuously voting for the same people/groups and things don’t change for the better the system is no longer the apparatus that needs focus.

You can pretend this isn’t a political issue and I wish it wasn’t but the education leaders in this country are elected officials from the local level all the way up to the federal level. And the Democrats have had a stranglehold on education, especially the liberal arts, for decades. This isn’t even a debatable point. Look at where teacher union donations go. Anywhere between 70-85% of teachers are Democrats. Education is absolutely a political issue because it isn’t a bipartisan controlled issue.

There have been republican presidents too. I hear what you're saying about blindly believing in the democrats. Nobody is saying that only the democrats can fix it. The democrats are just the only party to acknowledge that it needs to be fixed. I truly don't care who fixes it and I bet if you talk to other people of color they will say the same. Candace Owens even said her biggest frustration with the Republican party is that they gave up on courting the black vote. Can't you acknowledge that? The system is better it just needs some more work and I don't care the party.

Your 1st question highlights that you don't understand what systemic means. I tried to explain it but it's clearly that my explanation isn't working. You seem to think a system is whats current.