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Hydrogen

BMW is not alone. Hyundai and Toyota are making similar moves. The fuel, which leaves no emissions when combined with oxygen in a fuel cell, can run everything from vehicles to factories to power plants. In the case of cars, it is safer than gasoline, lighter than air, and easily maintained. And one hydrogen station can service 400 cars a day with fill-ups lasting five minutes.

“BMW is convinced that hydrogen can make an important contribution to sustainable mobility alongside battery-electric vehicles in the future – provided the necessary hydrogen infrastructure is in place and offers a good price for hydrogen, and the price of the vehicles falls,” the company says in a statement. “In those circumstances, hydrogen fuel cell cars can be the zero-emissions technology that allows users to maintain the flexible driving habits they are accustomed to.”

Pure hydrogen is stored in a tank before piping it to a fuel cell to create clean electricity. For it to become mainstream by 2030, prices have to fall. Central to that is electrolyzers — the device that creates an electric current to split apart the hydrogen and oxygen from the water where it is found. Those costs have to fall from $840 per kilowatt to $420 per kilowatt.

BMW says that a critical advantage of hydrogen cars is that they have a longer range than all-electric cars. A full hydrogen tank runs for about 300 miles. Cars with large batteries can match that, but they cost notably more. Furthermore, they take longer to charge. Consequentially, electric vehicles lose range in cold weather. But hydrogen cars do not. Most importantly, the exhaust gas from a hydrogen engine consists of pure water vapor. It is therefore emissions-free. The carbon footprint is neutral if renewables generate the electricity used to break down hydrogen and oxygen.

“We should also not forget that hydrogen technology is not new, but is tried and tested in a range of fields,” BMW says. “By way of example, refineries today use large quantities of hydrogen as a process gas in the processing of crude oil. Pipelines and hydrogen storage have also been in operation for decades.”
 
Even hydrogen’s most ardent advocates acknowledge that significant energy losses occur when hydrogen is produced and transported: as much as 70% of the energy content may get lost. BMW says that it is half the overall efficiency of a battery-powered vehicle. However, if the electricity comes from abundant wind and solar, then it does not matter how inefficient the making of hydrogen is.

“With so much renewable energy, who cares if hydrogen production is inefficient,” says Mike Strizki, founder of the Hydrogen House. “Free is still free. We can do seasonable storage of energy and pump the hydrogen into the existing pipelines — as much as 20%. Once the infrastructure gets in place, we will be hard-pressed to resume burning carbon. With renewable energy, you never drill a dry hole. Right now renewables are cheaper and energy storage makes it viable.”

FedEx already has a delivery truck running on hydrogen in New York State.
Meantime, Fuel Cell maker Plug Power says that it is on track to build out 70 metric tons of green hydrogen per day by the third quarter of next year. That compares to the current global capacity of 300 metric tons that is produced from fossil fuels. So almost 20% of hydrogen production next year will come from clean sources. Moreover, green hydrogen prices will keep falling, and ultimately, it will be the lowest cost fuel for transportation — made possible by the dramatically falling cost of wind and solar energies.

But hydrogen proponents say that more government incentives are needed, similar to electric vehicles. There will be a need for significant investments in the infrastructure. But clean car buyers must also get tax breaks, a move that is working in Norway where 75% of all new vehicles run on electricity.

As for the Volkswagen Group, it says that it concentrates on producing battered-powered vehicles for the masses. But it is continuing to research fuel cell technology. For example, the Audi division started in 2021 a small-scale hydrogen-powered vehicle. That said, global climate commitments necessitate immediate solutions — ones that have greater possibilities for electric vehicles. The car company is on the verge of selling more than a million electric vehicles a year.

“In the push-phase from today to 2023/2025, manufacturers will push e-mobility. The main reasons for this are the strict CO2 standards,” says Volkswagen, in a statement. “Added to this are the initial high investment costs. Both of these factors mean that purchase incentives must be set in order to bring e-cars onto the market. In the subsequent pull phase until 2030 and above all until 2035, e-cars will also become more financially interesting for customers.

“This cost advantage is supplemented by lower service costs: because the e-car has fewer service-relevant components such as oil and petrol filters than a combustion engine, less maintenance and repair is required. And: the costs for oil and lubricant changes are completely eliminated,” Volkswagen concludes.

Commercial and industrial fleets will undoubtedly get cleaner — a function of hydrogen-powered vehicles and those with electric batteries. The big carmakers are moving in that direction. BMW is dedicated to zero-emissions cars and focuses on hydrogen, while Volkswagen has a similar mission — but has put more of its marbles on e-mobility. They are destined to achieve more significant economies of scale, and businesses will be the beneficiaries.
 
FedEx already has a delivery truck running on hydrogen in New York State.
Meantime, Fuel Cell maker Plug Power says that it is on track to build out 70 metric tons of green hydrogen per day by the third quarter of next year. That compares to the current global capacity of 300 metric tons that is produced from fossil fuels.
 
Personally, I hope his stocks crash badly,,, because 😴

Oh BTW, just a little FYI:
The stock market as a whole has lost over 1 Trillion in the last year....
 
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Personally, I hope his stocks crash badly,,, because 😴

Oh BTW, just a little FYI:
The stock market as a whole has lost over 1 Trillion in the last year....

Hey IG-I wish nothing but the best for you. I see how you could be down on other renewables like solar and wind, but hydrogen has the capability to really help the country get off foreign oil.
 
Hey IG-I wish nothing but the best for you. I see how you could be down on other renewables like solar and wind, but hydrogen has the capability to really help the country get off foreign oil.

I don't believe that it can but I'm hopeful for the future. Perhaps in 30 years or so but my more "science capable" friends tell me it's unlikely to ever be competitive unless fossil fuels just continue to get more and more ridiculous, price wise.

And even then they claim there will be major issues and then said a bunch of crap I didn't fully understand.
 
I don't believe that it can but I'm hopeful for the future. Perhaps in 30 years or so but my more "science capable" friends tell me it's unlikely to ever be competitive unless fossil fuels just continue to get more and more ridiculous, price wise.

And even then they claim there will be major issues and then said a bunch of crap I didn't fully understand.

At 4.50 a gallon of gas, I’m guessing it’s becoming a wash. H is expected to come down in price as much as 66%, as/if it gets mass produced. At that point it would be a $35 fill up on most cars/trucks.


You could be right, but many countries are on board and making big investments into H. Off the top of my head-Germany, Spain, England, Norway, Finland, Holland, Sweden, France, Australia, Japan, korea, and Egypt are all committing big money into H production and infrastructure
 
At 4.50 a gallon of gas, I’m guessing it’s becoming a wash. H is expected to come down in price as much as 66%, as/if it gets mass produced. At that point it would be a $35 fill up on most cars/trucks.


You could be right, but many countries are on board and making big investments into H. Off the top of my head-Germany, Spain, England, Norway, Finland, Holland, Sweden, France, Australia, Japan, korea, and Egypt are all committing big money into H production and infrastructure

My nerdy science friends were talking about "catalysts" and other such mumbo-jumbo that we don't have but would need a lot of to mass produce the hydrogen vehicles, or the propulsion systems for the vehicles.
 
My nerdy science friends were talking about "catalysts" and other such mumbo-jumbo that we don't have but would need a lot of to mass produce the hydrogen vehicles, or the propulsion systems for the vehicles.

I know all you guys are doing this already, but do You ever just wake up and think about Hydrogen in mass production?
 
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Hey IG-I wish nothing but the best for you. I see how you could be down on other renewables like solar and wind, but hydrogen has the capability to really help the country get off foreign oil.

I'm all for the use of solar, wind, and alternate fuels as additions over time.
Big Oil has done all that they can to hold those alternatives down imo.

I'm not a Big Oil fan, as they have and are, making billions off America's natural resources that belong to All American Citizens. Just one of the many elitist scams perpetrated on the rest of us.
They are the latest version of the 'Robber Barons' of the past.
BTW, they are now joined by the High Tech & Social Media Barons, to our great determent.

When they get a 'low pressure' version of Hydrogen fuel, let me know.

And due to the level of knowledge (and some ignorant bias) here, I won't even try to address zero point energy among this audience. I will instead refer any that might be interested here....
Here are some excerpts from a Stanford paper:

Harnessing Zero-Point Energy - Chas Blakemore -Dec. 10, 2017


For pedagogical reasons, we will consider the popular formulation of zero-point energy. The most interesting and relevant framework for zero-point energy can be understood from the quantum field theory for photons and electrons: quantum electrodynamics. Glossing over an exceptional amount of mathematical and conceptual background, the energy of a state in quantum field theory is computed as an expectation of a Hamiltonian, <H>, which describes the energy of the state in terms of operators acting on wave functions. The final computation usually requires an integral over the allowed momenta of particles in the state.

Measuring a force between two metal plates is all well and good (exceptional in fact), but the pragmatist might wonder what use could come of said measurement, or even the applicability of the driving theory itself. With this line of thinking, we finally return to our first reference: an alleged measurement of thrust from a "Casimir Rocket" at NASA's Eagleworks Laboratories. [1] By investigating the relatively new realm of observable consequences of quantum vacuum fluctuations, and making use of highly-skilled space-flight engineers, NASA hopes to construct a propulsion system that does not require a fuel, only energy in the form of electrical power.

But for right now, this year, we don't need ANY FOREIGN OIL at all. America has enough in the ground that we can pump, refine, and use as we transition to better energy sources, hopefully in the near future.....
 
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I'm all for the use of solar, wind, and alternate fuels as additions over time.
Big Oil has done all that they can to hold those alternatives down imo.

I'm not a Big Oil fan, as they have and are, making billions off America's natural resources that belong to All American Citizens. Just one of the many elitist scams perpetrated on the rest of us.
They are the latest version of the 'Robber Barons' of the past.
BTW, they are now joined by the High Tech & Social Media Barons, to our great determent.

When they get a 'low pressure' version of Hydrogen fuel, let me know.

And due to the level of knowledge (and some ignorant bias) here, I won't even try to address zero point energy among this audience. I will instead refer any that might be interested here....
Here are some excerpts from a Stanford paper:

Harnessing Zero-Point Energy - Chas Blakemore -Dec. 10, 2017


For pedagogical reasons, we will consider the popular formulation of zero-point energy. The most interesting and relevant framework for zero-point energy can be understood from the quantum field theory for photons and electrons: quantum electrodynamics. Glossing over an exceptional amount of mathematical and conceptual background, the energy of a state in quantum field theory is computed as an expectation of a Hamiltonian, <H>, which describes the energy of the state in terms of operators acting on wave functions. The final computation usually requires an integral over the allowed momenta of particles in the state.

Measuring a force between two metal plates is all well and good (exceptional in fact), but the pragmatist might wonder what use could come of said measurement, or even the applicability of the driving theory itself. With this line of thinking, we finally return to our first reference: an alleged measurement of thrust from a "Casimir Rocket" at NASA's Eagleworks Laboratories. [1] By investigating the relatively new realm of observable consequences of quantum vacuum fluctuations, and making use of highly-skilled space-flight engineers, NASA hopes to construct a propulsion system that does not require a fuel, only energy in the form of electrical power.

But for right now, this year, we don't need ANY FOREIGN OIL at all. America has enough in the ground that we can pump, refine, and use as we transition to better energy sources, hopefully in the near future.....

Far out IG! I dig the super deep thought. I agree big oil is some dirrrrty bastards
 
 
Big companies going hydrogen:

-Amazon
-Walmart
-Home Depot
-Microsoft
-Toyota
-Hyundai
-Fotescue
-Hyvia
-Dodge
-GM
-Cummins
-BMW
 
BEVs are awesome. I own one myself. Gonna need both types if we are coming off oil. Going cross country or more than 400 miles in a day and the FCEL car overtakes the battery. 5 minute refill versus 1 hour charge.

Fcels advantage over bev is the engine doesn’t have to grow wildly in size for big payloads. Fcel will dominate the work truck/semi space over batteries.
 
Elon Musk: “fool cells”

/thread

He’s been saying that for 10 years. Kind of like Coke saying Pepsi sucks. He doesn’t sell fuel cells, he sells BEVs


If I had listened to Elon when he first said fool cells 10 years ago, I would not have been fortunate enough to buy a boatload of plug at $1.30
 
He’s been saying that for 10 years. Kind of like Coke saying Pepsi sucks. He doesn’t sell fuel cells, he sells BEVs


If I had listened to Elon when he first said fool cells 10 years ago, I would not have been fortunate enough to buy a boatload of plug at $1.30
He is saying it because EV smokes it in terms of efficiency.
 
The BMW guy doesn’t think hydrogens inefficiency is a big deal, when you get the power from a renewable source.


Even hydrogen’s most ardent advocates acknowledge that significant energy losses occur when hydrogen is produced and transported: as much as 70% of the energy content may get lost. BMW says that it is half the overall efficiency of a battery-powered vehicle. However, if the electricity comes from abundant wind and solar, then it does not matter how inefficient the making of hydrogen is.

“With so much renewable energy, who cares if hydrogen production is inefficient,” says Mike Strizki, founder of the Hydrogen House. “Free is still free.
 
I know all you guys are doing this already, but do You ever just wake up and think about Hydrogen in mass production?
I certainly do …..

explosion-explode.gif
 
That's BS EvilKing, what you're more likely doing, is trying to influence the public to buy in, so you can then dump that stock before you lose your ass.

The public gives you their answer with what they buy,,, and what they avoid... H-BOOM!
 
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