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An interesting take on the Putin discussion (Economist)

grandhavendiddy

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Putin is a very sophisticated and savvy player.

I would have thought that he would have said, "yes, give me the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine and no NATO" and then let's figure out what a longer term peace looks like.

Biden made no progress here, so this is not a critique of Trump (my comments) - at all, but this will be difficult indeed. I do think that for Trump the one (significant) win is getting the EU to finally pay their fair share. If we get that plus mineral rights, that is far ahead of where we were at.

_______________

Leaders | Russia and America talk

The trap Vladimir Putin set for Donald Trump​

The Russian president wants to suggest that Ukraine is just a detail in a wider relationship​

20250322_LDD003.jpg
Photograph: Getty Images/AP/The Economist
Mar 19th 2025
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THEY TALKED by phone for over two hours, but Vladimir Putin left Donald Trump with almost nothing to show for it—a slap in the face that only a man possessed of unbounded chutzpah could pretend was a win. A week earlier, negotiators for America and Ukraine had agreed on a 30-day ceasefire in a conflict that has lasted for over three years. Mr Trump had said that if Russia did not sign up he might hit it with tough new sanctions. In the event, he rolled over. Even Boris Johnson, a former British prime minister who admires Mr Trump, declared that Putin is “laughing at us”.
Instead of an unconditional ceasefire, Mr Putin proposed only that both sides stop striking each other’s energy infrastructure, an area where Ukraine has been landing some weighty blows on the invader. For anything further to happen, says the Russian government, Ukraine must accept a freeze on foreign military aid and an end to conscription and training, although Russia proposes no such restrictions on itself. Mr Putin also wants a solution to the “root causes” of the conflict, by which he really means an end to the existence of Ukraine as an independent country. Those are not the words of a man who is eager to compromise.

Optimists can extract a few crumbs of comfort. A pause on attacks on infrastructure is a small advance, and it could conceivably be followed by others, as negotiations are to continue. And Mr Trump has, in public at least, refrained from endorsing Mr Putin’s harsher demands for Ukraine. The country remains in the same sticky but far from calamitous position that it was before Mr Trump’s drive for a ceasefire began three weeks ago.
The real danger lies ahead. Mr Putin wants the American president to believe that, as statesmen, they have bigger fish to fry than squabbling over a forlorn place like Ukraine. So long as it does not get in the way, Russia and America can accomplish almost anything together. Russia could help resolve crises in the Middle East and beyond, perhaps leaning on its friend Iran to forgo the bomb. American investment in Russian businesses, such as exploring for gas in the Arctic, could steam ahead. Sanctions would be lifted and Russia could rejoin the G7. Imagine if Russia were detached from its “no-limits partnership” with China. “World war three”, an abiding worry of Mr Trump’s, would have been averted.
All this is a fantasy designed to tempt Mr Trump into giving Mr Putin what he wants in Ukraine in return for empty promises. The reality is that Russia now depends more on China than it ever will on America, and will not be separated from it. Russia’s leverage over Iran is limited. Russia’s economy is smaller than Italy’s and subject to a despot’s whims, so business opportunities are slim.
On the contrary, if in pursuit of this chimera Mr Trump eases the pressure the West has imposed on Russia, America will lose. For a start, it will drive a further wedge between America and Europe, which will not follow Mr Trump. Ukraine will be destabilised, posing risks to all of Europe. The alliances and values that America has championed for decades will be degraded, and America itself will be weaker as a result. Mr Trump may care little about those things, but he will surely be troubled by the risk of looking weak, as his predecessor Joe Biden did when the Taliban overran Afghanistan.
The Putin-Trump call came as an American-brokered ceasefire in Gaza was breaking down amid Israeli attacks (see Middle East & Africa section). Mr Trump’s personal style of diplomacy can break logjams, but peacemaking seems too gruelling and detailed for him to see through. The White House readout from the call with Russia talked of “enormous economic deals and geopolitical stability when peace has been achieved”. It is clear what Mr Putin wants. It is odd that Mr Trump seems so ready to give it to him
 
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Putin is a very sophisticated and savvy player.

I would have thought that he would have said, "yes, give me the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine and no NATO" and then let's figure out what a longer term peace looks like.

Biden made no progress here, so this is not a critique of Trump (my comments) - at all, but this will be difficult indeed. I do think that for Trump the one (significant) win is getting the EU to finally pay their fair share. If we get that plus mineral rights, that is far ahead of where we were at.

_______________

Leaders | Russia and America talk

The trap Vladimir Putin set for Donald Trump​

The Russian president wants to suggest that Ukraine is just a detail in a wider relationship​

20250322_LDD003.jpg
Photograph: Getty Images/AP/The Economist
Mar 19th 2025
SaveShare
Give
THEY TALKED by phone for over two hours, but Vladimir Putin left Donald Trump with almost nothing to show for it—a slap in the face that only a man possessed of unbounded chutzpah could pretend was a win. A week earlier, negotiators for America and Ukraine had agreed on a 30-day ceasefire in a conflict that has lasted for over three years. Mr Trump had said that if Russia did not sign up he might hit it with tough new sanctions. In the event, he rolled over. Even Boris Johnson, a former British prime minister who admires Mr Trump, declared that Putin is “laughing at us”.
Instead of an unconditional ceasefire, Mr Putin proposed only that both sides stop striking each other’s energy infrastructure, an area where Ukraine has been landing some weighty blows on the invader. For anything further to happen, says the Russian government, Ukraine must accept a freeze on foreign military aid and an end to conscription and training, although Russia proposes no such restrictions on itself. Mr Putin also wants a solution to the “root causes” of the conflict, by which he really means an end to the existence of Ukraine as an independent country. Those are not the words of a man who is eager to compromise.

Optimists can extract a few crumbs of comfort. A pause on attacks on infrastructure is a small advance, and it could conceivably be followed by others, as negotiations are to continue. And Mr Trump has, in public at least, refrained from endorsing Mr Putin’s harsher demands for Ukraine. The country remains in the same sticky but far from calamitous position that it was before Mr Trump’s drive for a ceasefire began three weeks ago.
The real danger lies ahead. Mr Putin wants the American president to believe that, as statesmen, they have bigger fish to fry than squabbling over a forlorn place like Ukraine. So long as it does not get in the way, Russia and America can accomplish almost anything together. Russia could help resolve crises in the Middle East and beyond, perhaps leaning on its friend Iran to forgo the bomb. American investment in Russian businesses, such as exploring for gas in the Arctic, could steam ahead. Sanctions would be lifted and Russia could rejoin the G7. Imagine if Russia were detached from its “no-limits partnership” with China. “World war three”, an abiding worry of Mr Trump’s, would have been averted.
All this is a fantasy designed to tempt Mr Trump into giving Mr Putin what he wants in Ukraine in return for empty promises. The reality is that Russia now depends more on China than it ever will on America, and will not be separated from it. Russia’s leverage over Iran is limited. Russia’s economy is smaller than Italy’s and subject to a despot’s whims, so business opportunities are slim.
On the contrary, if in pursuit of this chimera Mr Trump eases the pressure the West has imposed on Russia, America will lose. For a start, it will drive a further wedge between America and Europe, which will not follow Mr Trump. Ukraine will be destabilised, posing risks to all of Europe. The alliances and values that America has championed for decades will be degraded, and America itself will be weaker as a result. Mr Trump may care little about those things, but he will surely be troubled by the risk of looking weak, as his predecessor Joe Biden did when the Taliban overran Afghanistan.
The Putin-Trump call came as an American-brokered ceasefire in Gaza was breaking down amid Israeli attacks (see Middle East & Africa section). Mr Trump’s personal style of diplomacy can break logjams, but peacemaking seems too gruelling and detailed for him to see through. The White House readout from the call with Russia talked of “enormous economic deals and geopolitical stability when peace has been achieved”. It is clear what Mr Putin wants. It is odd that Mr Trump seems so ready to give it to him


Putin doesn't need Trump to give him anything in reality though of course they would like relations to revert back to what they were. Musk is probably close to reality with his past statements on this. If Ukraine only loses Donbass and not their Odessa port also that is about the best outcome possible for them. The fact is the idiot lefty globalists found out unlike their leftist professors told them you can't mostly win a war with sanctions and social media. Whether Russia would have eventually broke off that pro-Russian area of Donbass we don't know but Ukraine shelling them when they made it known they liked Russia certainly was going to make Russia roll in there eventually besides the NATO talk.
 
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This will be Trump's biggest battle of his life. Putin is ex KGB and not a pushover and a rotten human being. Biden and Obama were pushovers for Putin and Putin knows almost half of America (liberals) will not support Trump even if he cured cancer. So Putin is going to play this out as long as he can knowing the leftist media and liberals in our country will slight Trump on his every move during this war and negotiations.

Biden nor Obama had the guts or guile to stand up to Putin and Biden certainly did not have the intelligence or energy. Putin knew this and made his moves accordingly.
 
This will be Trump's biggest battle of his life. Putin is ex KGB and not a pushover and a rotten human being. Biden and Obama were pushovers for Putin and Putin knows almost half of America (liberals) will not support Trump even if he cured cancer. So Putin is going to play this out as long as he can knowing the leftist media and liberals in our country will slight Trump on his every move during this war and negotiations.

Biden nor Obama had the guts or guile to stand up to Putin and Biden certainly did not have the intelligence or energy. Putin knew this and made his moves accordingly.

Putin has nothing to gain if it's not a decent deal for them though. Its better for him to completely finish the job around Donbass and Kursk if its not a deal that gets the Ukraine military completely out of there and I think hell would probably be close to freezing over if he allowed NATO country forces anywhere near that border area in Eastern Ukraine. Russia has too much into this now to give up their current reality. If I was Putin I would hold my ground on a deal. If Zelensky and the western Euro idiots try to keep negotiating from a position of weakness Trump will truly cut Ukraine off and Western Europe will just be in a position to lie about the reality of the war (and crying Trump is bad - Russian Collusion nonsense again) while Russia completes their goals there.
 
"The trap Vladimir Putin set for Donald Trump"

SMDH

I thought The Economist spent the last 9 years telling us Putin told Trump what to do?

When did they drop that lie? And now they've moved onto the next one.

This is why no one should pay any attention to MSM.
 
This will be Trump's biggest battle of his life. Putin is ex KGB and not a pushover and a rotten human being. Biden and Obama were pushovers for Putin and Putin knows almost half of America (liberals) will not support Trump even if he cured cancer. So Putin is going to play this out as long as he can knowing the leftist media and liberals in our country will slight Trump on his every move during this war and negotiations.

Biden nor Obama had the guts or guile to stand up to Putin and Biden certainly did not have the intelligence or energy. Putin knew this and made his moves accordingly.
Just like in Vietnam, and ever since....our enemies use democrats to further their causes. Democrats AID our enemies, and have for at least 6 decades. (if you want to go back to the Revolutionary war...even longer
 
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Just like in Vietnam, and ever since....our enemies use democrats to further their causes. Democrats AID our enemies, and have for at least 6 decades. (if you want to go back to the Revolutionary war...even longer
All we need now is Jane Fonda jumping on Russian tanks.
 
"The trap Vladimir Putin set for Donald Trump"

SMDH

I thought The Economist spent the last 9 years telling us Putin told Trump what to do?

When did they drop that lie? And now they've moved onto the next one.

This is why no one should pay any attention to MSM.
Well, you do have certain DEMS who still believe that Trump is Putin's puppet.
 
My take is, Russia is led by an authoritarian oligarch, looking out for Russian interests (and his own), but that is it. Russia isn't your granddaddy's USSR anymore, they are a capitalist country now. I think I've mentioned this several times but remember when the soviets tried to set up bases in Cuba within striking distance of the USA? Yeah, I'm old enough to remember, and we got pissed off AF. Basically that's what's happening on their border with Ukraine, and at least 1/3 of Ukrainans identify as Russian.

So when NATO threatened to allow Ukraine to join, it set up the same damned scenario as our Cuban Missile Crisis. I suspect they are a bit paranoid about it.
 
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