No need to review what happened. FSU was properly excoriated publicly and had to pay a bunch of money.,
What's the scoop on Callaway and Treon
- Thread starter TennesseeGator
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His point was that Johnson is an inept lawyer, that protects the University more than he advocates for his clients.
Yea, I gathered that after about three back and forths. Curious he would not come out and say it directly
In other words, Huntley Johnson does for UF EXACTLY what the Tallahassee Police Department does for FSU.
Am I wrong in making that statement? I'm pretty sure that I am not.
Oozie is correct they do not have to use common sense or be fair they can do what ever they want and it is crazy .. watch this video for 5-10 minute and you will see if a girl comes over to your dorm for sex tells all of her friends she wants sex and take her clothes off and jumps on you, they guy could be kicked out of school for rape .. not stopping her. That is legal currently under title IX
Callaway could be 100% innocent and be in trouble
Yes, we should definitely judge all of them by one extreme example of a case that happened somewhere else to someone else. That sounds very reasonable.
No one publishes the stories where everything went just fine and justice was served, but crazy stories that rarely happen are certainly click worthy. The general rule is that you don't need to worry about the things in the news. If they were common enough to be likely to happen to you then it wouldn't be newsworthy. That video is just the same.
There are thousands and thousands of court cases heard across this country every day and we never hear about the vast majority of them (especially misdemeanors). However, this judge hands down a 6 month sentence to a spectator that yawned and it makes the news.
https://www.datalounge.com/thread/8190902-judge-sentences-man-to-6-months-in-jail-for-yawning
In your words "they do not have to use common sense or be fair they can do what ever they want and it is crazy .." so you better never yawn in a courtroom. You could be 100% alert and still be in trouble.
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It is common for the public to dislike successful defense lawyers. They often advocate for people that the public have deemed guilty. When the client walks free the public then turns its displeasure to the defense lawyer.
However, it is very uncommon for an inept defense lawyer to be disliked by the public. If the lawyer were inept then the client would be found guilty.
I can see why some might dislike Johnson, but it is unfathomable how anyone could label him inept. He is able to obtain a favorable outcome for a very high percentage of his clients.
And your example still doesn't disprove the point that it's nonsensical to have students and faculty handling criminal matters with no due process. There could be a million examples of these things being handled 'right' and it would still be a stupid idea. It isn't difficult to understand.
I agree that it would be nonsensical to have students and faculty handling criminal matters. Fortunately, that is not the case. This is not a criminal matter as no charges have been filed and the student conduct council is not a law enforcement entity.
This is the equivalent of an HR investigation at a workplace.
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HR investigation is not a bad comparison, but those are typically done by in-house professionals with significant HR experience with the company's policies and the relevant laws, and they are often aided by lawyers.
It's a tricky question what a University should do about an allegation from a student that they've suffered harm/assault/rape from another student.
Agreed.
However, at UF the student council merely gives a written recommendation to the Dean of Students. The Dean of Students may choose to adopt, amend or ignore the recommendation provided by the student council. The student council is merely a process designed to give the students and faculty input. It is ultimately the Dean of Students that decides the outcome and punishment if applicable.
http://regulations.ufl.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/40431.pdf
In a high profile case such as this, I am assuming the Dean of Students would involve UF's legal team. Especially since the accused has legal council.
I would be utterly shocked if the Dean of Students allowed three freshmen and a liberal arts teacher to railroad this thing to prove a political point.
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According to this article dated May 20, 2015 the accused in the mattress girl case was never found guilty or expelled by Columbia University.
"Nungesser had been cleared by the university of Sulkowicz’s accusations, and of similar accusations by two other women whose complaints were apparently encouraged by acquaintances sympathetic to Sulkowicz, and possibly by Sulkowicz herself."
I'm not sure what your point was with this example.
A guy was falsely accused of rape and was cleared. Then he was falsely accused of rape again and was again cleared. Then he was falsely accused of rape again and again cleared.
How does this show that the student council process always gets it wrong?
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/418686/mattress-girl-perfect-icon-feminist-left-ian-tuttle
Please outline the investigative steps taken by TPD immediately after the victim's report. I'm dying to know your idea of an "investigation."
It won't take you long.
Are you claiming that the DA also claimed his investigation was incomplete and incompetent (-- your words not Meggs BTW)? There ended up with many pages of facts, test results, interviews, and testimony all reviewed by Meggs as well as Justice Harding before their decisions.
I am claiming that Megs said the TPD and the FSU investigations prior to him getting involved were incomplete and incompetent. And that a lot of facts had been lost due to both points.
OK, gottcha. Though I think that there were no "facts" lost, technically, if they were lost then Meggs would not have knowledge of them. Specifically isn't he speaking to the inability to garner other or more facts that could no longer be gathered due to the time interval?
Please outline the investigative steps taken by TPD immediately after the victim's report. I'm dying to know your idea of an "investigation."
It won't take you long.
The video of the sex was lost. As was the video at the bar.
Both would have been interesting.
Lost facts and Willie Meggs....that brings up some interesting quotes by Mr. Meggs.
"Anybody, as my daddy would say, with one eye and half-sense knows there are some things that needed to be done that weren't done" Meggs said (in reference to TPD)
"It would have been pretty easy on Dec. 8, 2012, (the day after the incident) to determine who was involved in this event that happened that night, but that did not occur" said Meggs. The alleged victim knew the alleged attacker was with a football player named Chris. There was only one football player on the team named Chris and that was Winston's roommate. TPD did not attempt to identify the alleged attacker until 30 days later when the alleged victim spotted Winston by coincidence and reported him. Apparently TPD is pioneering the new self service style of detective work.
On the effort of the police to investigate the case Meggs had this to say "We found out we were 11 months behind the event and not much was done."
Meggs had this to say about Winston ""he was not exemplifying great character that night, no matter what the facts are."
When Meggs was asked what exactly happened the night of the alleged rape he said "We have a handle on what happened. It's what I think. Nobody cares what I think, it's what I can prove. If I had evidence to support my theory and we were going forward, I would lay that out."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...s-on-winston-case-saying-it-was-ugly/8071975/
"Anybody, as my daddy would say, with one eye and half-sense knows there are some things that needed to be done that weren't done" Meggs said (in reference to TPD)
"It would have been pretty easy on Dec. 8, 2012, (the day after the incident) to determine who was involved in this event that happened that night, but that did not occur" said Meggs. The alleged victim knew the alleged attacker was with a football player named Chris. There was only one football player on the team named Chris and that was Winston's roommate. TPD did not attempt to identify the alleged attacker until 30 days later when the alleged victim spotted Winston by coincidence and reported him. Apparently TPD is pioneering the new self service style of detective work.
On the effort of the police to investigate the case Meggs had this to say "We found out we were 11 months behind the event and not much was done."
Meggs had this to say about Winston ""he was not exemplifying great character that night, no matter what the facts are."
When Meggs was asked what exactly happened the night of the alleged rape he said "We have a handle on what happened. It's what I think. Nobody cares what I think, it's what I can prove. If I had evidence to support my theory and we were going forward, I would lay that out."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...s-on-winston-case-saying-it-was-ugly/8071975/
Except it isn't a workplace, and these guys aren't getting paid while they await the outcome. This is an extrajudicial deprivation of access to a state provided service without any sort of process. It's guilty until proven innocent.
Johnson has been a loyal devotee to the plight of accused Gator football players for years. Treon should be thankful for the public hatchet job Johnson did on Treon's first public accuser...which prompted her to withdraw her criminal complaint...reserving her right to bring the charges in the future. It put Treon back on the field and the police stopped investigating. The accuser, a scholarship UF athlete, left school. Another Huntley Johnson success story. At least one major news paper labeled Huntley team MVP for his efforts.
.orlandosentinel.com/sports/os-mike-bianchi-saturday-circus-1011-20141010-column.html
I have read the student code of conduct and I missed the part where it mentions one is guilty until proven innocent. Can you please provide a link to that?
Extrajudicial deprivation of access to a state provided service without any sort of process? LOL.
I guess that means that I am the victim of an extrajudicial deprivation of access to a state provided service without any sort of process as well. In fact, by your definition we all are. The state provides welfare, food stamps, elementary through high school education, health insurance...the list goes on and on and on. They won't allow me to attend kindergarten right now and there hasn't been any sort of process justifying them denying me the opportunity. If I walked in an elementary school classroom and took a seat they most certainly would not allow me to stay.
State provided services are not a right that we all have access to on demand. They don't give everyone denied a service a court date either.
Attending UF is not a right. They grant access to students based on a number of variables and they also deny access to students for many different reasons as well.
In this case though, there is most definitely a process. I have linked to it in most of my posts, but here it is again.
http://regulations.ufl.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/40431.pdf
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Have you ever heard of a guy named Jameis Winston? The way I remember the story is that Winston got off scot free while the accuser was harassed and had to withdraw from school.
You should be careful with those stones. Glass breaks easily.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/u...sts-shadow-over-tallahassee-justice.html?_r=0
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I am pretty sure the young lady dropped the charges when it become clear that they had little merit
lol at anyone worried about jameis, we picked him off 4 times in a half basically and he single handedly almost lost to treon if we didn't have a DL at TE the game was over if he could not only catch much less toss it up stone hands for a pick six that put the game away. I was watching FSU fans tell me their nc team was better than UF's 08 team because they went undefeated against Syracuse and wake and did what they have supposed to been doing for 12 years if they were decent in the lolacc and it took a miracle to come back and win down 21-3 against the only decent team they played all year and by far the worst sec team ever in the nc game that broke the streak. They only got there because bama got pampered as always to kick a fg with one second left that backfired and never should have happened but they deserve it for all the shit they always get handed to them... There's a reason why no one respects fsu when they finally win all their games in the SEC and Florida was so bad they couldn't even knock them out of it like they always have over the years with 3 losses and a down year in the SEC but still better than the virginia and boston college defeaters.
"which prompted her to withdraw her criminal complaint" -
I'd ask for a link if I didn't already know one does't exist. You have zero support for this. And for someone who constantly gets on here demanding links, sources, to support similar deductions when the shoe is on the other foot....
"It put Treon back on the field and the police stopped investigating" -
Insert foot in mouth. Completely unlike the Jameis "investigation," police had already investigated. They had already obtained cell phone communication between the two, already identified and already interviewed those with potential information, and already had the story of both sides.
If he is suspended or has limited access to classes until the resolution of the matter, he is guilty until proven innocent. Suspension is in itself a punishment. There are process requirements to punish students at public schools. Your silly examples don't negate that. The Court's decided the issue.
According to that logic the entire US legal system works on a guilty until proven innocent basis. There are literally thousands of people sitting in a jail cell awaiting trial. Incarceration is in itself a punishment.
Suspending someone pending the outcome may indeed be a punishment, but that is quite different from declaring them guilty.
You have a poor understanding of the meaning of the phrase guilty until proven innocent.
Guilty until proven innocent implies a system where an accuser can lodge a complaint and then it is up to the accused to prove innocence.
Please provide a link to wherever you got this information. An example of it working this way at UF, an official document, anything at all.
In many of my previous posts I have provided a link to the UF student code of conduct. It explains in detail the actual process which is not at all what you are describing.
Preliminary hearings, grand jury indictments, and probable cause determinations are all procedural safeguards. There is also the speedy trial requirement and bailment to limit provisional incarceration.
Is Callaway suspended from school? Treon was in 2014. If Callaway was suspended, then I hope there was a hearing that met the requirements set down in Goss.
Goss vs Lopez? That is your basis for this argument?
Goss vs Lopez involved a Columbus Central High School and their decision to suspend nine students including Dwight Lopez. The Supreme Court ruled that the school district had violated the student's right to due process. Judge Byron White delivered the majority opinion and asserted that it was based on the fact that the State had made education a fundamental right by providing for free public education for all residents between 5 and 21 years old.
The ruling hinged on the fact that it was a high school and the student had been given the right to a free education. Students at the University of Florida do not have that right as the right to a free education ends when you graduate from high school. Students at UF are attending voluntarily and are charged for services of the university. The student conduct code, including suspension or expulsion, is a legal part of this contract.
The specific part of the court ruling that makes the distinction is as follows:
"must recognize a student's legitimate entitlement to a public education as a property interest that is protected by the Due Process Clause, and that may not be taken away for misconduct without observing minimum procedures required by that Clause."
Goss vs Lopez does not apply to any college in any way at all.
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And almost all of those things generally occur after an individual has been arrested and jailed. People are arrested and jailed every day all across the country without any of those things occurring first. You asserted that if an individual were suspended before the hearing he was being judged guilty. The entire US legal system does the same by jailing individuals, even if it is just for a short while, before any hearings.
By your logic, every time a LEO arrests someone and takes them to jail the system is declaring them guilty. It is faulty logic.
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Oh brother. Goss most certainly applies to public universities. Furthermore, UF is covered by the Dixon decision of the Fifth Circuit.
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