Tough loss, not Mike White's best effort for sure
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White is following a Men's Hoops Legend who had his team in the Elite 8 for multiple years preceding his departure. There is only so much that can (and should) be expected from him.
Mac followed Mustard and his path of destruction, misery, and boredom. It is appropriate to expect more from him. Given the wet fart dutch oven we have been subjected to since mid-November, it is easy to see why some folks are being more critical of Mac than White.
Mac followed Mustard and his path of destruction, misery, and boredom. It is appropriate to expect more from him. Given the wet fart dutch oven we have been subjected to since mid-November, it is easy to see why some folks are being more critical of Mac than White.
Is there something I'm seriously missing or am I the victim of a vast joke?
So White inherits a program that came off of one lousy year after a string of Elite 8 appearance and two decades of stability and program building.
Mac inherits a program that hasn't been more than mediocre for 5 years and had a roster that had fallen into disrepair from years of neglect.
White might get into the tournament.
Mac won our first Eastern title in 6 years.
And White is the one who, not only isn't being broadly questioned as a hire, but in fact seems to have wide support?
I'm the only one to think that's absurd?
Mac has done more with the football program in year one than White has done with the basketball program in his first year. The SEC is tougher in football than in basketball and Mac got UF to the SEC title game.
Mac was handed the keys to a much worse situation than what White inherited.
It's too early to tell on both of them IMO. I've seen positive and negatives from both of them. I don't think either one of them are duds but I also dont think either one of them are the next Meyer or Donovan.
Mac was handed the keys to a much worse situation than what White inherited.
It's too early to tell on both of them IMO. I've seen positive and negatives from both of them. I don't think either one of them are duds but I also dont think either one of them are the next Meyer or Donovan.
Zook - 2002 - #20
Meyer - 2005 - #15
Muschamp - 2011 - #12
McElwain - 2015 - #23 >>> 2016 # 14
All of those class rankings were taken from (imo-biased) rivals.
So I'd say 'not so much' when it comes to falling over backwards with a Top 10 class....
Muschamp left McElwain with a 7-5 Bowl Winning team.
Donovan left White with a 16-17 Loser (No Tourney) team.
White has already taken esentually the same 'core' team to 17 wins.
(jus-sayin)
BillyD recruited 5 Star Kasey Hill and 5 Star Chris Walker, both MickyD-AA's.
White re-recruited 4 Star K.Allen and 3 Star juco J.Leon.
In hine-sight, which 2 would you rather have, and how is that 'star thingy' working out?
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Zook - 2002 - #20
Meyer - 2005 - #15
Muschamp - 2011 - #12
McElwain - 2015 - #23 >>> 2016 # 14
All of those class rankings were taken from (imo-biased) rivals.
So I'd say 'not so much' when it comes to falling over backwards with a Top 10 class....
Muschamp left McElwain with a 7-5 Bowl Winning team.
Donovan left White with a 16-17 Loser (No Tourney) team.
White has already taken esentually the same 'core' team to 17 wins.
(jus-sayin)
BillyD recruited 5 Star Kasey Hill and 5 Star Chris Walker, both MickyD-AA's.
White re-recruited 4 Star K.Allen and 3 Star juco J.Leon.
In hine-sight, which 2 would you rather have, and how is that 'star thingy' working out?
Two of the three coaches you compare MCE to were fired, and the other is Urban Meyer, so unless he wants to win the Championship next year, I think he better make a habit out of finishing in the recruiting top 10.
As far as the hoops team, Billy recruited Allen, White kept him, which was impressive. As far as Leon, I'll take Kasey Hill over him, but not Chris Walker.
And the "star thingy" generally works out pretty well in hoops. Pretty much all of our best players from the start of the Billy D era were 4 or 5 stars: Donnell Harvey, Brett Nelson, Mike Miller, Dupay, David Lee, Roberson, Chris Richard, Joakim, Brewer, Horford, Calathes, Parsons, Boynton, Beal, Pat Young, Prather, Murphy, Frazier, Devin Robinson, Finney Smith and Allen.
Additionally, we had some big-time recruits go on to put up big numbers as transfers: Abukar, Mario Bogan, Ryan Appleby, James White, etc...
We had some great 3 star or below players: Udonis, Brent Wright, Udonis, Justin Hamilton, Matt Walsh, Lee freaking Humphrey, Taurean Green, Erving Walker, Yeguette, Scottie freaking Wilbekin. I doubt any team in the country got more out of its three-star players. But you need the big-name guys. Show me any team that wins in a big conference consistently without them. Just like in football, the number of stars they get generally equates to the number of schools chasing them. They're being chased for a reason. If you don't win your share of those battles, you're not going to beat the teams that do.
But what does all that jabber have to do with this clear statement/claim?
You should be able to fall over backwards and sign a top 10 class for Florida football.
I showed you that UF's last 4 HBC's had classes outside of the Top 10, making the above claim incorrect and invalid. (nothing personal was intended btw)
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Allen backed out a bit from UF when BillyD left.
Tennis-sea jumped in, got him to visit, and offered him.
White was hired and went to Allen's house, even before he came to UF, to RE-recruit him to UF, which he was successful at doing.
PG Kasey Hill ***** and PF Chris Walker ***** - Both MickyD-AA's
OR
SG/PG KeVaughn Allen **** and SF Justin Leon *** - Neither MickyD-AA's
And just like with any recruiting at UF, I'll go with the coache's choice over the rating stars.
E.Lane ***** vs A.Callaway *** (and a very long list of others)
At UF they need more than just stars that don't take into account the academics, or their character, or their citizenship.
It's always tricky getting the combination that can be successful at UF for 3-4 years. The Recruit Ranking Services are ok for talking points in the off season, but when they hit the classroom and the field and the neighborhood, the teachers, the police, and the coaches don't give a chit what their stars were, and neither do I....
You should be able to fall over backwards and sign a top 10 class for Florida football.
I showed you that UF's last 4 HBC's had classes outside of the Top 10, making the above claim incorrect and invalid. (nothing personal was intended btw)
=================
Allen backed out a bit from UF when BillyD left.
Tennis-sea jumped in, got him to visit, and offered him.
White was hired and went to Allen's house, even before he came to UF, to RE-recruit him to UF, which he was successful at doing.
PG Kasey Hill ***** and PF Chris Walker ***** - Both MickyD-AA's
OR
SG/PG KeVaughn Allen **** and SF Justin Leon *** - Neither MickyD-AA's
And just like with any recruiting at UF, I'll go with the coache's choice over the rating stars.
E.Lane ***** vs A.Callaway *** (and a very long list of others)
At UF they need more than just stars that don't take into account the academics, or their character, or their citizenship.
It's always tricky getting the combination that can be successful at UF for 3-4 years. The Recruit Ranking Services are ok for talking points in the off season, but when they hit the classroom and the field and the neighborhood, the teachers, the police, and the coaches don't give a chit what their stars were, and neither do I....
Zook - 2002 - #20
Meyer - 2005 - #15
Muschamp - 2011 - #12
McElwain - 2015 - #23 >>> 2016 # 14
You are looking at transition classes. Mac's 16 class was historically bad for a non-transition class at UF. His transition class was just a little worse than average for that category.
It's probably more accurate to say that "You should be able to fall over backwards and sign a top 10 class for Florida football... as long as you are an above average recruiter and it isn't your transition class."
I think you are overlooking Mac's finish vs the fact that White still has the rest of the season to coach and recruit. Not sure if you ignore the difference on purpose or are just trolling all things basketball.
I think it should also be noted that UF is always on the list of best football coaching jobs, but almost never on those same lists for basketball because the support, infrastructure, and recruiting grounds are vastly superior for our football program than our basketball program. Simply put, it is almost certainly a lot easier to excel at UF as a football coach than as a basketball coach, which really puts what Billy did as the Greatest ever coach at UF into perspective.
The "rest of the season?"
Come on. We're a week away from March.
Is there an idea this team is going to do something in March?
I have a suspicion that this because football truly is more important than basketball and people don't care nearly as much
That is unquestionably true for the UF fanbase as a whole, although we definitely have a small, rabid section of our basketball fanbase that is as good as any in the country. They just don't fill the arena.
We are still deep into the SEC regular schedule. With a lot to be determined. For examle, Florida could get as high as a #2 seed in the SEC-T. Or as low as a #7.
In the NCAA-T, Florida is currently projected anywhere from a #6 seed to a #9 seed. Yet we could miss the tournament, if the team tanks. I do not expect it will though.
There is still lot on the line
[quoe]Is there an idea this team is going to do something in March?[/quote]
I don't think they will lose the final three games. Other than that, I have no idea.
Certainly some truth in that
Coach White should be compared to what other UF basketball coaches have done in the past (i.e, Norm Sloan, Lon Kruger, Billy D., etc.) not to what other UF football coaches have done even though both of them were hired in the same year - which is very remarkable for any athletic department. I do agree with the above, the two sports (basketball/football) are vastly different; however, both can bring visibility to the university with their successes.
The basketball standard at UF has been getting to 20+ total wins, make the ncaa tournament, and trying to win the SEC. The gators (17-10, 8-6) are still in the thick of it in accomplishing many of these goals. I don't think any new UF basketball coach has ever won the SEC title in their 1st year of the program.
Do you know what the all-time wins for a first year basketball coach is at Florida?
At 17 wins already, Coach White is within 4 more wins in tying it.
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Who knows how UF will fare in the SEC Tourney. Getting one of the four SEC bye's is a huge advantage for the teams finishing in the top4 of the conference. Florida (5th place) still plays Vandy (H), LSU (A), Kentucky (H) and Missouri (A). I do admit that losing close games recently to USC and Alabama have been huge setbacks to UF's SEC title hopes - that just shows how competitive that the SEC has been and how much parity from top to bottom there is in SEC basketball.
One could argue that Coach White is facing much stiffer competition in his division than what McElwain has faced. As the top basketball team, Kentucky is analogous to Alabama in football and is one of the top contenders for the NCAA title.If you divide up the SEC standings as SEC-E and SEC-W, you will find that the East has significantly better teams than the West - also UF plays LSU (4th place) twice.
SEC-E
1. Kentucky (20-7, 10-4) <---- 1st
2. S.Carolina (22-5, 9-5) <----- 2nd
3. Florida (17-10, 8-6) <-------- Currently in 5th place
4. Vanderbilt (16-11, 8-6) <----- 6th
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5. Georgia (14-11, 7-7) <-------- 9th
6. Tennessee (13-4, 6-8) <------ 11th
7. Missouri (10-17, 3-11) <------ 14th
SEC-W
1. Texas A&M (20-7, 9-5) <---- 3rd
1. LSU (16-11, 9-5) <------------- 4th
-----------------------------------------------------------
3. Ole Miss (17-10, 7-7) <------ 7th
4. Alabama (16-10, 7-7) <------ 8th
5. Arkansas (13-14, 6-8) <------ 10th
6. Miss St (12-14, 5-9) <--------- 12th
7. Auburn (10-16, 4-10) <-------- 13th
With four games remaining in the regular season, the above could still change drastically than what it is now.
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How anybody can say White has done any better than McElwain is mind boggling to me. McElwain won 71% of his games this year. So far White has won 62% of his games. Mac has a better win percentage with a tougher schedule in a tougher conference. That is simplistic terms. McElwain took over from a program that had to fire their coach. White did not. That's another huge difference.
IMO McElwain had the more impressive first year and it isn't even that close.
IMO McElwain had the more impressive first year and it isn't even that close.
Should we wait until the end of the season before making these conclusions?
Only for those that use logic and reason
Only for those that use logic and reason
I don't think anyone thinks White's having a better season than Mac had. White would have to make the sweet 16 (we'll be lucky to make the tourney after tonight) or win the SECT (someone else will have to beat UK) to match winning the East, even in a really down year in the division.
Are you sure about that? I get the impression quite a few people thought White was having a better season than McElwain. Of course until the team layed an egg tonight.
I confess, count me as one of those people that thought White was getting it done. But we are getting worse as the season progresses. Well, there are still 3 games left and we will need to win out.....
I believe that, at the equivalent points in the season, people were already going gloomy on Mac, whereas here there's a bizarre optimism.
I don't get it.
This basketball team isn't good and it's fading late. So, sure, there's games to be played but my goodness, to think they're going to do anything in the post season is like thinking the football team might beat Bama.
And the "UK is the Bama of basketball?" Um...they're a 7 loss team. That's like Bama going into the Iron Bowl at 9-2...maybe 8-4.
I don't get it.
This basketball team isn't good and it's fading late. So, sure, there's games to be played but my goodness, to think they're going to do anything in the post season is like thinking the football team might beat Bama.
And the "UK is the Bama of basketball?" Um...they're a 7 loss team. That's like Bama going into the Iron Bowl at 9-2...maybe 8-4.
I don't really care who's opinions say which is the better, or at least more accomplished, 1st year Gator coach, White or McElwain. I'm pretty happy with both/either.
Just for info: The West was stronger in football, the East is stronger in B-Ball.
B-Ball beat their best OoC opponent, WVa.
Football lost to their best OoC opponent, FSUcks.
They both lost to their best SEC opponent, UK and UA.
Football didn't do chit in the post season, and IMO, neither will B-Ball.
None of that prevents me from believing that the future is bright for both.
Just for info: The West was stronger in football, the East is stronger in B-Ball.
B-Ball beat their best OoC opponent, WVa.
Football lost to their best OoC opponent, FSUcks.
They both lost to their best SEC opponent, UK and UA.
Football didn't do chit in the post season, and IMO, neither will B-Ball.
None of that prevents me from believing that the future is bright for both.
Why are you comparing White with McElwain?
Basketball and Football are totally, different sports, different expectations, different fan support, etc.
White should be compared with other UF basketball coaches from the past!
Besides, the football team is stocked with way more top talent than the basketball team and should perform at a higher rate.
For instance, how many NFL 1st rounders were/currently on the UF football team vs.
how many NBA 1st rounders are on this Florida team?
It is a much more difficult job of keeping Florida as a top basketball power year in and year out to which Billy Donovan has done in the past successfully than it is of keeping UF as a top football school. UF football enjoys many recruiting advantages that basketball does not always have.
The yearly, bizzarre optimism associated with Florida basketball is that there are no expectations placed upon the team. Any kind of success is seen as a feel good, positive for the fan base. Florida fans would be very satisfied with a return to the ncaa tournament.
You throw in an occasional SEC title, NCAA Final4, and most SEC fan bases would be delirious with those accomplishments. You're right about the recent Vandy loss giving Gator basketball fans a dim view of Florida's ncaa chances. One can only hope that UF will perform better with so many games still left.
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As for Kentucky, if you had not followed basketball, the wildcats have gone to multiple Final4's in recent years. That is the equivalent of a four-team play-off for which Florida has not done in football. UK was undefeated last year before losing in the Final4 last year. The wildcats have won the 2012 NCAA title. So, yes, Kentucky basketball is the equivalent to Alabama football. Both also get the best available talent every year and place high draft picks in the NBA, NFL, every year.
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