Oh and in case you missed it....

[BamaFan1137]

Dan van derDat, a British military historian, wrote in The Guardian last week that Mr. Nave made "enormous inroads" into Japanese coded messages. In June 1939, shortly before World War II broke out in Europe, the Japanese Navy began using an important new code. Captain Nave was able to read it by the end of the year.

Capt. Eric Nave, 94; Broke Japan's Code Before Pearl Harbor (Published 1993)

www.nytimes.com

The articles goes on to say that Churchill didn't share this with FDR. I don't believe that for a moment. Having all of our carriers out to sea at once was highly unusual and the ships we did lose were mostly antiquated battleships from a bygone era.

Churchill and FDR were both desperate to get the US into the war. And remember, Germany had a treaty with Japan for mutual assistance which meant that if Japan and America went to war, Germany would declare war on the US. That's exactly what happened on December 11th, 1941. We returned the favor the same day.

Also we know for certain that both sides, the US and the Japanese, had broken one another's diplomatic codes.

Lastly, Japan used MANY different codes throughout the war and different services used different codes. JN25b, the Naval code, was the most sophisticated but even it was 20% broken by the Brits prior to December 7th.

 

[BamaFan1137]

As it is it took RAN Coastwatchers on 16 islands just to keep fighters from carrier based forces and Rabaul from getting the jump on Cactus air forces.

As for this part, which is absolutely true and amazing to me, this was done because...

1) Japan would often not use radio traffic at all and would instead hand deliver coded traffic via an attache.

2) We were very slow to react to strategic intelligence, especially early in the war, so often that kind of information reached theater leadership too late. The commanders in theater, namely Nimitz and I'm sure MacArthur as well, began the practice of coast watching as an almost real time alert system.

 

[EvilWayz]

Dan van derDat, a British military historian, wrote in The Guardian last week that Mr. Nave made "enormous inroads" into Japanese coded messages. In June 1939, shortly before World War II broke out in Europe, the Japanese Navy began using an important new code. Captain Nave was able to read it by the end of the year.

Capt. Eric Nave, 94; Broke Japan's Code Before Pearl Harbor (Published 1993)

www.nytimes.com

The articles goes on to say that Churchill didn't share this with FDR. I don't believe that for a moment. Having all of our carriers out to sea at once was highly unusual and the ships we did lose were mostly antiquated battleships from a bygone era.

Churchill and FDR were both desperate to get the US into the war. And remember, Germany had a treaty with Japan for mutual assistance which meant that if Japan and America went to war, Germany would declare war on the US. That's exactly what happened on December 11th, 1941. We returned the favor the same day.

Also we know for certain that both sides, the US and the Japanese, had broken one another's diplomatic codes.

Lastly, Japan used MANY different codes throughout the war and different services used different codes. JN25b, the Naval code, was the most sophisticated but even it was 20% broken by the Brits prior to December 7th.

Thanks. What's interesting is we were reading their traffic for the entire war.

Apparently Japanese culture is to blame.

Japanese crypto and intelligence officers knew, because that's their job, that any code will eventually be broken. But unlike Western intelligence, they couldn't just go to their superiors and say by now we should assume our codes have been broken and we should use new ones. Because the Japanese codes were conceived by Japanese minds, and it was therefore inconceivable that barbarian minds could break them. The suggestion that it was even possible would be considered defeatism and disloyalty, and unlike the Western military, that would not only get you relieved but being ordered to publicly ritually disembowel yourself was not out of the realm of possibility. Even after we assassinated Admiral Yamamoto when there was no way other than reading their mail that we could have coordinated an attack that complex and precise, they ignored us. We did intentionally allow some Intel to fall thru the cracks with some loss of life, but British could read the Germans Intel and once to prevent them from finding out, Churchill allowed Coventry to be absolutely leveled with massive loss of life.

 

[BamaFan1137]

Thanks. What's interesting is we were reading their traffic for the entire war.

Apparently Japanese culture is to blame.

Japanese crypto and intelligence officers knew, because that's their job, that any code will eventually be broken. But unlike Western intelligence, they couldn't just go to their superiors and say by now we should assume our codes have been broken and we should use new ones. Because the Japanese codes were conceived by Japanese minds, and it was therefore inconceivable that barbarian minds could break them. The suggestion that it was even possible would be considered defeatism and disloyalty, and unlike the Western military, that would not only get you relieved but being ordered to publicly ritually disembowel yourself was not out of the realm of possibility. Even after we assassinated Admiral Yamamoto when there was no way other than reading their mail that we could have coordinated an attack that complex and precise, they ignored us. We did intentionally allow some Intel to fall thru the cracks with some loss of life, but British could read the Germans Intel and once to prevent them from finding out, Churchill allowed Coventry to be absolutely leveled with massive loss of life.

Agree...and that stuff is VERY interesting to me. I was born too late. 😁

HMS Ark Royal, a freaking aircraft carrier, was also allowed to sink to protect the Brits understanding of Enigma.

Apparently it was "possibly too late" to guarantee its rescue once they had the Intel on the German U-boats in the area so the decision was made to risk it, hope it made it through, rather than alert the ships and quite possibly the German Abwehr.

That's freaking commitment.

 

[EvilWayz]

We know a little bit for a couple of redneck mall cops, don't we?

 

[BamaFan1137]

At one point he wasn't sure if I had what it takes to be an actual mall cop. 😄

Ironically, my county doesn't have an indoor mall anymore.

 

[EvilWayz]

As for this part, which is absolutely true and amazing to me, this was done because...

1) Japan would often not use radio traffic at all and would instead hand deliver coded traffic via an attache.

2) We were very slow to react to strategic intelligence, especially early in the war, so often that kind of information reached theater leadership too late. The commanders in theater, namely Nimitz and I'm sure MacArthur as well, began the practice of coast watching as an almost real time alert system.

The Marines financed the Coastwatchers after MacArthur dismissed them as unimportant.

 

[BamaFan1137]

The Marines financed the Coastwatchers after MacArthur dismissed them as unimportant.

Wow, I didn't know that.

I've never been a huge fan of MacArthur's. I'm sure he was a brilliant tactician and strategist but his ego wrote some giant checks that were cashed in blood.

His southern Pacific approach was ALL about his ego..."I shall return" (Phillipines). Cutting straight across to Formosa (Taiwan) from the Marshall Islands (Nimitz's plan) was a much more efficient plan. Fewer soldiers and Marines die, less treasure spent, much, much quicker. We could have strangled Japan from there and then moved north bypassing many useless islands.

Same ego cost us in Korea.

 

[EvilWayz]

Wow, I didn't know that.

I've never been a huge fan of MacArthur's. I'm sure he was a brilliant tactician and strategist but his ego wrote some giant checks that were cashed in blood.

His southern Pacific approach was ALL about his ego..."I shall return" (Phillipines). Cutting straight across to Formosa (Taiwan) from the Marshall Islands (Nimitz's plan) was a much more efficient plan. Fewer soldiers and Marines die, less treasure spent, much, much quicker. We could have strangled Japan from there and then moved north bypassing many useless islands.

Same ego cost us in Korea.

Things MacArthur did that make Marines angry:

Decorated every fighting unit in the Philippines except the 4th Marines. When asked why he said the Marines have enough medals.

Dismissed the Coastwatchers establishment because Coastwatchers weren't regulars but civilians and natives hastily commissioned into the RAN to afford them Geneva Convention protections.

Dismissed guerilla operations in the Phillipines after General Wainwright surrendered, even after a light colonel named Fertig collected soldiers sailors and Marines on Mindanao and started harassing the Japanese log trains. The Marines sent Raiders in with 20k in gold coins, a radio With SOI and medicine, and exfiltrated one of Fertigs men to meet MacArthur. And when MacArthur finally showed up to retake the Phillipines, Fertig was waiting for him with thirty thousand armed effectives and a freaking band. Still didn't get him promoted.


Ignored Marine intelligence that the North Koreans were going to cross the 38th parallel.

Ignored Marine intelligence about taking the lighthouse and sun to ree island in the flying fish channel before the invasion of Inchon, so the Marines sent Raiders to do it anyways.

1st Marine Provisional Division saved the day when Walkers 8th army got its ass handed to it.

Ignored Marine intelligence that 6 divisions of red Chinese had infiltrated the borderland entered the war.

Douglas MacArthur was a military genius and an encyclopedia of military knowledge and history but he tended to do whatever he wanted and not follow orders he didn't like and that's why he got relieved.

Edit: There was no Geneva Convention then, but officers had to be treated as POW while civilians could be shot as spies.

 

[BamaFan1137]

Things MacArthur did that make Marines angry:

Decorated every fighting unit in the Philippines except the 4th Marines. When asked why he said the Marines have enough medals.

Dismissed the Coastwatchers establishment because Coastwatchers weren't regulars but civilians and natives hastily commissioned into the RAN to afford them Geneva Convention protections.

Dismissed guerilla operations in the Phillipines after General Wainwright surrendered, even after a light colonel named Fertig collected soldiers sailors and Marines on Mindanao and started harassing the Japanese log trains. The Marines sent Raiders in with 20k in gold coins, a radio With SOI and medicine, and exfiltrated one of Fertigs men to meet MacArthur. And when MacArthur finally showed up to retake the Phillipines, Fertig was waiting for him with thirty thousand armed effectives and a freaking band. Still didn't get him promoted.


Ignored Marine intelligence that the North Koreans were going to cross the 38th parallel.

Ignored Marine intelligence about taking the lighthouse and sun to see island in the flying fish channel island before the invasion of Inchon, so the Marines sent Raiders to do it anyways.

1st Marine Provisional Division saved the day when Walkers 8th army got its ass handed to it.

Ignored Marine intelligence that 6 divisions of red Chinese had infiltrated the borderland entered the war.

Douglas MacArthur was a military genius and an encyclopedia of military knowledge and history but he tended to do whatever he wanted and not follow orders he didn't like and that's why he got relieved.

We see the man the same way. So did Nimitz.

Yea I know....Nimitz was Navy but he was also the real brains in the Pacific.

 

[NavigatorII]

Lots of history I didn't know about. May order some books and catch up with WWII. Read the 3 book trilogy written by Shelby Foote.( 3000 pages worth) a couple of years ago. Currently reading Lee's Lieutenants. Lots of details packed into these books.

 

[EvilWayz]

The Marines had a special intelligence unit that made both the FBI and the OSS, the forerunner to the CIA, very angry, because they not only had better Intel but conducted quite a few clandestine operations successfully without anyone knowing about them.

 

[NavigatorII]

The Marines had a special intelligence unit that made both the FBI and the OSS, the forerunner to the CIA, very angry, because they not only had better Intel but conducted quite a few clandestine operations successfully without anyone knowing about them.

There's a good book out there, "Those Angry Days" about the prelude to WWI and WWII, more about the temperature of America and politics than military maneuvers. It's a long read but very interesting. I never knew Charles Lindbergh, a flight hero, was one of America's first libertarians.

 

[BamaFan1137]

Lots of history I didn't know about. May order some books and catch up with WWII. Read the 3 book trilogy written by Shelby Foote.( 3000 pages worth) a couple of years ago. Currently reading Lee's Lieutenants. Lots of details packed into these books.

I'm an absolute WW2 nerd, always have been. Fascinating part of human history.

Japan lost the war the moment they failed to catch our aircraft carriers in port. They probably lose even if they had caught one or two.

They're best chance for victory was if we had decided not to bother, decided that it wasn't worth the American lives and money. They believed the bloody nose at Pearl Harbor and across the Pacific would convince us it wasn't worth it. They miscalculated, obviously.

Ironically if they had just taken the Phillipines, Guam and Wake from the US, and not hit Pearl Harbor, it might have worked. I guess it would have depended on the casualties we took and the American response to it.

If it had, they could have traded the POW's for normalized trade relations with the US and had their way.

 

[BamaFan1137]

The Marines had a special intelligence unit that made both the FBI and the OSS, the forerunner to the CIA, very angry, because they not only had better Intel but conducted quite a few clandestine operations successfully without anyone knowing about them.

They raided the Crayola factory in Pennsylvania??? 😁

Happy Birthday you Crayon Munchers - Imgur

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imgur.com

 

[BamaFan1137]

There's a good book out there, "Those Angry Days" about the prelude to WWI and WWII, more about the temperature of America and politics than military maneuvers. It's a long read but very interesting. I never knew Charles Lindbergh, a flight hero, was one of America's first libertarians.

He was also, reportedly, a bit charmed by nazi Germany.

Tough to know for sure but he did visit nazi Germany on several occasions trying to help keep the peace. A bit like Neville Chamberlain at best imho.

 

[EvilWayz]

They raided the Crayola factory in Pennsylvania??? 😁

Happy Birthday you Crayon Munchers - Imgur

Discover topics like happy birthday, semper fi, usmc, and the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users like TinyOctopus.

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They got Marines on Buka under the noses of the Japanese, Sun To Ree without the NK or MacArthur knowing, Same with Mindanao, they set up a weather station in the Gobi Desert without the Russians or the Chinese knowing about it. And the Marine Raiders made the Japanese miserable.

We're very sneaky.

 

[BamaFan1137]

Watch this @NavigatorII ....

@EvilWayz

Who wins a bare knuckle fight...Audie Murphy or John Basilone?

Winner fights Chesty Puller. Go.

😂

 

[EvilWayz]

Watch this @NavigatorII ....

@EvilWayz

Who wins a bare knuckle fight...Audie Murphy or John Basilone?

Winner fights Chesty Puller. Go.

😂

Basilpne, but only because Audie Murphy is tiny.

 

[BamaFan1137]

Basilpne, but only because Audie Murphy is tiny.

Actually that's my guess too. Beats Chesty because Chesty was passed his prime.

If you're going to apply logic, this won't be as fun as I intended. 😂

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

Actually that's my guess too. Beats Chesty because Chesty was passed his prime.

If you're going to apply logic, this won't be as fun as I intended. 😂

My money is on Chesty. You can beat that face all day long and you will not damage it. Besides he has a steel plate in his chest LOL.

The other two had lions hearts and stainless steel testicles. That's good for when you are doing insanely dangerous things in combat but does not necessarily translate to fist fighting.

 

[JimGaster]

The Conservatives have been right about almost everything!

 

[EvilWayz]

Actually that's my guess too. Beats Chesty because Chesty was passed his prime.

If you're going to apply logic, this won't be as fun as I intended. 😂

Nope. Chesty Puller could dump a full 30 round mag through an M1 Thompson on target without the weapon moving. And the M1 didn't have a cutts compensator. He also had an EGA tattoo that went from his throat to his waist.

Lewis B. Puller was basically a gorilla with a high pain tolerance.

 

[JimGaster]

We saved Russia's arse early in the war and up until late 1942 or maybe early 1943. From then on, the outcome was decided on the eastern front. It was just a matter of time, blood and treasure.

The Russians destroyed a significant component of The Nazi War Machine in Stalingrad & subsequently Kursk. That happened long before Americans landed in Normandy. However, the American (Allied) efforts in N Africa & build up to D-Day certainly had a MASSIVE impact upon Nazi planning & troop distribution.

Frankly, if Hitler went for the oil in The Balkans & didn’t get bogged down in Stalingrad the Nazi would have faired far better off…

There is a lot of The Hand of God (and The Devil too) in how that all played out!

 

[GhostOfMatchesMalone]

For you history buffs, if any of you have any old encyclopedias or history books from the late 40s or early 50s, make a note of how they describe nazis on the political spectrum versus how the media does today.

 

[instaGATOR]

Chit guys,,, some of us are getting OLD!
And we come from an era in which real education still happened.
With that being supplemented by continuing to learn by reading books instead of phone/google.... 😉

 

[instaGATOR]

Allies capture German Enigma machine, May 9, 1941. The Royal Navy captured German U-boat U-110 on May 9, 1941 in the North Atlantic, recovering an Enigma machine, its cipher keys, and code books that allowed codebreakers to read German signal traffic during World War II. The Enigma machine was an electro-mechanical rotor cipher machine used by the German navy to encrypt and decrypt messages passing from shore to ships at sea. Before that time, the Brits could break and read only about 20% of the German's Enigma coded messages.

=====


Early on, he was against the US entering the war, but later on during the war, as a civilian, Lindbergh flew a few unlisted combat missions in the Pacific theater in a P-38 Lighting and he got a kill (not reported to or recorded by the military). Civilians are not allowed in military combat.

He was there to teach the P-38 pilots how to use his flying tactics to improve their fuel economy to extend the P-38's range of operations. Things he learned and improved on to make his solo Atlantic Ocean crossing.

 

[BamaFan1137]

My money is on Chesty. You can beat that face all day long and you will not damage it. Besides he has a steel plate in his chest LOL.

The other two had lions hearts and stainless steel testicles. That's good for when you are doing insanely dangerous things in combat but does not necessarily translate to fist fighting.

LMAO, I so want to debate this...but I can't stop laughing.

"You can beat that face all day long...." 😂

 

[BamaFan1137]

Nope. Chesty Puller could dump a full 30 round mag through an M1 Thompson on target without the weapon moving. And the M1 didn't have a cutts compensator. He also had an EGA tattoo that went from his throat to his waist.

Lewis B. Puller was basically a gorilla with a high pain tolerance.

The dude was 43 years old on December 7th, 1941. He was a different breed, a man amongst boys.

It's honestly hard to fathom his toughness. The only way I would have fought him is if he was able to catch me....and I'm sure he could have if he wanted to.

 

[BamaFan1137]

The Russians destroyed a significant component of The Nazi War Machine in Stalingrad & subsequently Kursk. That happened long before Americans landed in Normandy. However, the American (Allied) efforts in N Africa & build up to D-Day certainly had a MASSIVE impact upon Nazi planning & troop distribution.

Frankly, if Hitler went for the oil in The Balkans & didn’t get bogged down in Stalingrad the Nazi would have faired far better off…

There is a lot of The Hand of God (and The Devil too) in how that all played out!

Agree completely.

It's POSSIBLE that Germany could have ended Stalinist Russia prior to Stalingrad, based on momentum alone. Especially, as you say, if they had bypassed the useless city of Stalingrad, secured the oil fields while surrounding the city and shutting off the Volga river.

 

[BamaFan1137]

Early on, he was against the US entering the war, but later on during the war, as a civilian, Lindbergh flew a few unlisted combat missions in the Pacific theater in a P-38 Lighting and he got a kill (not reported to or recorded by the military). Civilians are not allowed in military combat.

He was there to teach the P-38 pilots how to use his flying tactics to improve their fuel economy to extend the P-38's range of operations. Things he learned and improved on to make his solo Atlantic Ocean crossing.

Absolutely true. I'd honestly forgotten about that. He no doubt loved his country. He was just wrong about nazi Germany prior to the war. And he wanted to fight, join the Army Air-Corps. He wasn't allowed.

Allies capture German Enigma machine, May 9, 1941. The Royal Navy captured German U-boat U-110 on May 9, 1941 in the North Atlantic, recovering an Enigma machine, its cipher keys, and code books that allowed codebreakers to read German signal traffic during World War II. The Enigma machine was an electro-mechanical rotor cipher machine used by the German navy to encrypt and decrypt messages passing from shore to ships at sea. Before that time, the Brits could break and read only about 20% of the German's Enigma coded messages.

Another key was that the Polish Intelligence Services had 2 or 3 Enigma's. They'd done a lot of work figuring them out. They were older versions but the guts were all there.

At great human cost, they were able to get them out of Poland and into British hands at the last possible moment before Poland capitulated. And then several Polish Security Officials were tortured to death...none of them ever divulging the fact that they had Enigma's. The nazis never knew.