Yep we respectfully disagree and I still belive no man has any business being a cop if he won't handle a 95 pound mentally ill female with scissors without pulling his gun out and shooting her and the same goes with shooting this dog. That is a trigger happy cop that would do that and they should be embarrassed with their training they let that make them fear for their life. A non- defensive tactics trained male should be embarrassed if they did that also.
Cop shoots Golden Retriever who was trying to play...
- Thread starter Gator Fever
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Yep we respectfully disagree and I still belive no man has any business being a cop if he won't handle a 95 pound mentally ill female with scissors without pulling his gun out and shooting her and the same goes with shooting this dog. That is a trigger happy cop that would do that and they should be embarrassed with their training they let that make them fear for their life. A non- defensive tactics trained male should be embarrassed if they did that also.
I think you wouldn't be saying that if your 95 pound daughter was killed that way. You would be calling that cop out for being a coward pulling his gun out to shoot her because she approached him with scissors. Cops shouldn't get free rides on bad shootings like that. That is what created these incidents in the first place. Heck justifying a shooting like that would be like justifying a parent killing their child because the child got mad and came at them with scissors. Cops shouldn't get benefits others don't. If anything with a situation like that female their training and size should make them get less benefit of the doubt for doing that.
Like I said before those matrix with defensive tactics training led to a lot of this stuff as it gives cops without common sense justification in their minds to do things like that. I also understand cops want to back other cops actions up but there is no excuse for that.
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In one way it absolutely is my responsibility. My first job is to protect the innocent and stop/limit the killing. If I get killed or seriously injured without stopping the threat, I have failed the public I serve.
On top of that, if I'm killed or seriously injured, now my gun can be used to hurt even more innocent people.
If a person is willing to violently attack a cop, there are damn few others that this person wouldn't attack. They're freaking nuts.
OK..STOP right there. If I had a daughter...that would NEVER, EVER happen. And IF it did, you think I would blame a police officer who's life was in danger BECAUSE of my daughter? Man, I may be a LOT of things, however I was not raised that way, nor would I raise a child to think that way. Blaming ANYONE for a childs poor decisions OTHER than the child is a big problem in our world today. For our actions brings consequences. I would blame MYSELF for not teaching her better.
If what you are saying is accurate then I don't know a single cop who should be a cop...according to you.
But perhaps I'm missing something about this case that you're mentioning because I still don't know anything about it.
But I do know that underestimating an attacker with a deadly weapon is an unwise choice. If I was bulletproof, stabproof and unaffected by all blunt force trauma, I wouldn't shoot anyone fwiw.
If a kid attacked a parent with a deadly weapon, the parent would also be justified in using deadly force.
The same is true for literally everyone else.
If a cop killed my child under the circumstances that you mentioned, insofar as you've explained it, I would be heartbroken. However, I'd also recognize that the choice was made by my child, not the cop.
Exactly, and I am sure you and every officer is trained this way
We can agree to disagree but imo any male (not even a trained cop) that would shoot in that situation is either a coward or has a complex - mental issues which led him to think that was an appropriate response. And yes the chance that a cop gets cut in the forearm etc by the scissors being held by someone of that stature doesn't justify shooting them. The .001% chance (it is probably lower - I think you would be hard pressed to find any case of a trained male cop ever killed by a female with a pair of scissors because he didn't shoot her) of being killed certainly doesn't justify it.
So question...and I appreciate you opinion even though I 100% disagree. Why do armed self defense classes and police training NOT teach this way? They don't. They teach when you need to shoot....get the job done or YOU may die. Now that does NOT cover this situation above. It does NOT cover if someone is standing these w a knife NOT coming at the other person.
That is instructor dependent except for the book and matrix stuff and my guess is many more do teach common sense now since in recent years many cops have been arrested that followed what the defensive tactics matrix said was an allowable self defense level in the situation. When I took the classes years ago we mostly had 2 guys teaching it and one was more just follow the matrix as you can go one level higher than the perp while the other taught the matrix but really stressed you have to use common sense and obviously if you are a male and dealing with a much smaller male or a female you shouldn't be going to that level even if it is the proper thing with another male of similar size.
A case which the cops should have used more common sense years ago was that Rodney King case. We all know the guy was a dirtbag but just because the training said he was officially still resisting and that was in the use of force training you cant just be beating someone half to death like that with your club because you and your buddies wont do the right thing and just gang tackle and cuff the idiot.
I don't know anyone trained here recently in my part of FL but one cop I knew that retired a few years back said they really started stressing in their update training using common sense and straight up told them the recent court cases showed that your training isn't a good defense if the state decides to charge you - that a lot of cops have been convicted that technically did something their defensive tactics training seemed to say was allowed.
I know what you say is true...but I also know many LEO's are scared to death to defend themselves in the current negative LEO environment fearing they will lose their careers. And many are quitting the profession because of this
100% agree with you on that as the left has used it as a political weapon even arresting cops that were clearly in the right. I think most cops now wouldn't admit it but I bet because of the left they are much more likely to go hands on or a higher level with a white guy than they are a black guy doing the exact same thing basically. I bet it even deters making some traffic stops now depending on who is driving the car.
Yeah - I have two Goldens. This is exactly right. Or - at worst, ask for a massive amount of petting and busy bones.
Just ridiculous. These cops need to reign it in. It's just a dog.
10,000 percent.
A neighbor kid tried to get a bit vocal with a cop last week, and his father (former cop now a top sales executive at a tech firm) read the kid the riot act saying that, ESPECIALLY after George Floyd, the child (white) interaction could have ended VERY poorly.
The short answer, and I have always been this way, when I have interactions with the police, it is ALWAYS, "Yes, sir. No, sir. How can I help sir".
Hard stop.
What if she stabs him in the jugular? The femoral (huge vein in thigh)? Or in the eye?
.001% chance? I'd be interested in how you came to that number.
It's fine, we can disagree on this subject but I think you think that all, most or many cops are like what you see on TV. They aren't. Most are just normal humans, like you would see in every other profession.
Most don't have the time to work 50+ hours a week and then spend 10-12 hours on their bodies and another 10 to 15 hours a week to become a black belt in some martial art...all while being a husband, wife, parent or child to their own parents and a sibling to their siblings. They're just normal people. 20 years ago I would not have had the time as a new husband, father, ect.
I feel safe in the assumption that I've probably been attacked with a weapon more often than you have been. I'm a bit surprised that you seem to be unfazed by our differing experience levels on the subject. Worse yet, you continue to state that a person like me might be a coward or a person with a complex because I think getting stabbed is a horrible idea.
The only thing I can offer is this...earn your badge and come show us how it's done.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. WTF?
Because of the months long debates and second guessing over a decision that the cop has to make in a fraction of a second. That's why good cops are quitting the profession.
No one does this job for the money. That leaves two main motives...power hungry DB's and people who genuinely want to serve their fellow man.
In a good department, and I'm in one of those, we weed out the DB's. And if the ranking officers won't weed that type out, his peers will. In fact his peers can weed him out faster than his bosses can.
More and more, those who want to serve are leaving because some "expert" on TV or the internet is saying "he didn't have to shoot that person with the knife."
On top of that, we all get sued constantly. I have 3 pending right now. We all have a few...save those who just don't do anything.
It was a cop...not these cops.
I wouldn't have shot that dog. I have shot a dog before though. "It's just a dog" is a silly comment.
“I feel safe in the assumption that I've probably been attacked with a weapon more often than you have been. I'm a bit surprised that you seem to be unfazed by our differing experience levels on the subject.”
That’s par for the course on this forum: armchair experts who feel qualified to summarily dismiss the observations of people with years of experience and training in their field.
This is the same talking point you trotted out in the covid thread while White Knighting for @gator1776
How did that work out for you two?
In ReRe's defense, I typically deferred to 1776 on those types of subjects until it became crystal clear that his opinions and posts defied easily verifiable facts.
If someone can prove to the board that a cop should never use lethal force on a mentally unstable subject who is armed with a deadly weapon because she's small in stature and a female, then you guys shouldn't listen to me either.
I don't. Then show me all these cases of golden retrievers and 95 pound females with only scissors giving male cops mortal injuries. It's a complete joke they used their gun in those situations. Joe blow hardly trained security guards deal with worse things than that all the time without using their gun. A cop shouldn't be given different standards.
I agree 2nd guessing is out of control but in my 2 examples imo it clearly points to someone that should be forced to leave the profession as they clearly don't have the mental makeup to make good quick decisions on using that level of force.
As far as this guy I know it's hard to sustain a firing with the police unions but if I was the head guy I would probably stress the fact he continued to shoot the dog even as it was clearly fleeing from him after being shot.
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You are usually wrong but you are 100% correct in this case. LOL.
I usually take the cops side on these situations but that’s ridiculous. My brother worked as a cop for over 20 years, working in the most violent parts of the city, and never managed to shoot anyone, even though he could have justified it several times. He would have laughed at the 95 pounds chick with the scissors. What was she some ninja warrior? Some cops are just too big of a puss to handle these situations without killing someone. That’s always a last resort, not being worried about scraping a femoral artery, or some poodle latching onto your jugular. LOL.
I guess you do. Please list the many situations where a cop has been killed by a 95 pound woman with scissors.
Go.
No. Why don't you search how many times cops are faced with people wielding scissors or called to a scene where people have been stabbed with scissors. Maybe you should do that before applying percentages of probability.
So it's ok if a cop is stabbed so long as he survives said stabbing?
Makes sense.
The standard for use of deadly force is literally the same for everyone. EXACTLY the same in fact.
I honestly do not see how and why you guys continue to do that job the way many treat you. Listen, I have been in the car business for 38 years, and no one understands stereotyping any more than I do. Hell...I used to be the worst in the world at doing so. But the left has demonized all of you and made YOU the bad guy, instead of the people that commit the crimes. It honestly sickens me, and contributes to my VERY serious dislike of all lefties. One of MANY things that despise me about them.
With regard to the girl with the scissors, you're doing the 2nd guessing friend. And you're making the determination that, despite being out of her head and while holding a lethal weapon, she more than likely couldn't have killed the cops.
That's a ridiculous viewpoint imho.
Not all cops have a union. We're not unionized for example.
It's a struggle sometimes but it's also a calling...especially for the ones who do it right.
The most challenging calls are when people call you for help, over a problem that they themselves helped create, while they video the entire encounter with their phones from the moment that you get out of your vehicle and then they raise hell because you won't do exactly what they want (which would typically entail violating someone else's rights).
For example, we don't arrest people for misdemeanors unless a) we witness it first hand b) there's a court order c) it's a DUI or a domestic violence with recognizable physical injuries.
Short of the above, you the citizen must fill out a deposition, under oath and penalty of perjury, and then a warrant can be filed if appropriate.
To be honest, I do appreciate you checking in from time to time. Same with @gator1776 and any of the shot zealots.
People who look solely at someone’s size or gender have never physically encountered a person on certain drugs, or certain crazy people. If they had, they would realize their assumptions are ridiculous. While I will admit there is a fine line here, the moment that person tries to hurt someone (LEO or innocent person) all bets are off. The person that is doing the attacking is the bad person, not the other way around. George Floyd would be a good example
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