ADVERTISEMENT

Coincidence?

I suspect we don't agree on too much but a legitimate respectable answer is always appreciated. 👍
Agreed and agreed.

We probably agree on a range of social issues (I am essentially libertarian), and disagree on economic ones. The harder ones revolve around "equity" which is what of the commercial engine do you constrain, tailor to achieve ESG goals. (most of which are laudable)

We have to get back to a place where, especially in an increasingly multi-racial society, we can disagree without being disagreeable and continue to find points of commonality. It's very hard and without any historical precedent.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RayGravesGhost
I still think it was RUSSIA. glad politicians are not above the law, we should be much much harder on all of them.
 
Agreed and agreed.

We probably agree on a range of social issues (I am essentially libertarian), and disagree on economic ones. The harder ones revolve around "equity" which is what of the commercial engine do you constrain, tailor to achieve ESG goals. (most of which are laudable)

We have to get back to a place where, especially in an increasingly multi-racial society, we can disagree without being disagreeable and continue to find points of commonality. It's very hard and without any historical precedent.


100% agreed...

I enjoy batting the extremists around too much
Something I shouldn't engage in but the trolls here can get that out of anyone

No historical precedent or memory is a major problem
This experiment called "America" is unlike any other societal rule ever attempted

I hate sounding like an old man but sometimes the current day debates seem like the product of people who don't believe in anything that happened before they were alive
 
One final point, Ray and I have enjoyed the candor and back and forth here.

The great american experiment was unique in that it was an exercise in self-rule through a constitutional republic. That was exceptionally provocative and new and fraught with peril.

What made it easier, along with any massive societal change (1949 and the Communist Revolution in China, 1789 in France, etc.) is that it was done within a single, majority race.

We have now created unprecedented dimensionality here. We are exceptionally multi-racial. No other society has done both. It requires trust, faith, dialogue and an agreement around the central principles around a democratic society.

What makes 1619 project so concerning to the right is not that it is calling out that system racism started in the same year as the House of Burgesses was setup in Jamestown, but rather that the 1776 moment was deeply and forever flawed and calls into question it. The marxist and frankfurt school underpinnings of it, BLM, and general intersectionality highlights to many, at a conscious or intuitive level, is that the left/progressives will use the "energy" and cover of "democracy" and "open borders" to tip the scales and then once in power, create a series of laws, structures (pack the court), money redistribution, to fundamentally change the country and make it a version of socialism (or worse) that makes what is essentially great and different about this country null and void.

Fascinating times..
 
  • Like
Reactions: RayGravesGhost
No offense taken. It does not refute or change any of the above, but no offense.

Increasingly, there is no middle in the minds of many....

I still believe that there's a middle. I believe I'm middle right and imho you are middle left.

Not a judgment, just my take.
 
One final point, Ray and I have enjoyed the candor and back and forth here.

The great american experiment was unique in that it was an exercise in self-rule through a constitutional republic. That was exceptionally provocative and new and fraught with peril.

What made it easier, along with any massive societal change (1949 and the Communist Revolution in China, 1789 in France, etc.) is that it was done within a single, majority race.

We have now created unprecedented dimensionality here. We are exceptionally multi-racial. No other society has done both. It requires trust, faith, dialogue and an agreement around the central principles around a democratic society.

What makes 1619 project so concerning to the right is not that it is calling out that system racism started in the same year as the House of Burgesses was setup in Jamestown, but rather that the 1776 moment was deeply and forever flawed and calls into question it. The marxist and frankfurt school underpinnings of it, BLM, and general intersectionality highlights to many, at a conscious or intuitive level, is that the left/progressives will use the "energy" and cover of "democracy" and "open borders" to tip the scales and then once in power, create a series of laws, structures (pack the court), money redistribution, to fundamentally change the country and make it a version of socialism (or worse) that makes what is essentially great and different about this country null and void.

Fascinating times..

That is the fear. And to that end, look to South Africa. Apartheid was clearly flawed and had to die a quick death...but now the pendulum has clearly swung way too far in the other direction.

There was a decade or two of harmony in SA. That ship has sailed.
 
He said that was the right's fear....not that the fear is justified.

If you believe "create a series of laws, structures (pack the court), money redistribution, to fundamentally change the country and make it a version of socialism (or worse) that makes what is essentially great and different about this country null and void"

Then you're admitting to the white supremacist CRT based description of American history.

White people created a series of laws, structures (institutions), money distribution that favored a single majority race...themselves.

If you agree with havendiddy's description of the right's fear & response then you're admitting that America's success is dependent on racial bias for white people by white people.

Its comical that you went to S Africa as a cautionary tale of the pendulum swinging too far the other way

Why because Asia, Latin America, or Europe are such great examples of non-corrupt societies where they've managed a more acceptable "pendulum swing"?

The only reason why you make the "pendulum swinging too far the other way" comment is because that's when white people become the oppressed minority and you're afraid of some form of racial retribution

As they say "How convenient a time for you to have a come to Jesus moment"....
 
He said that was the right's fear....not that the fear is justified.

If you believe "create a series of laws, structures (pack the court), money redistribution, to fundamentally change the country and make it a version of socialism (or worse) that makes what is essentially great and different about this country null and void"

Then you're admitting to the white supremacist CRT based description of American history.

White people created a series of laws, structures (institutions), money distribution that favored a single majority race...themselves.

If you agree with havendiddy's description of the right's fear & response then you're admitting that America's success is dependent on racial bias for white people by white people.

Its comical that you went to S Africa as a cautionary tale of the pendulum swinging too far the other way

Why because Asia, Latin America, or Europe are such great examples of non-corrupt societies where they've managed a more acceptable "pendulum swing"?

The only reason why you make the "pendulum swinging too far the other way" comment is because that's when white people become the oppressed minority and you're afraid of some form of racial retribution

As they say "How convenient a time for you to have a come to Jesus moment"....
The Democrat Party would be lost without racism. They have rules for others but they are above the law.
 
The only reason why you make the "pendulum swinging too far the other way" comment is because that's when white people become the oppressed minority and you're afraid of some form of racial retribution

And you would agree that would be a bad thing, right?

Or are you of the opinion that we have it coming?

I've always felt like two wrongs make things no less than twice as wrong. Perhaps you disagree???
 
And you would agree that would be a bad thing, right?

Or are you of the opinion that we have it coming?

My opinion is that if you think those are the only 2 outcomes possible then it says more about your level of thinking

Its an admission that racial retribution is the only game in town

Very Christian of you

I've always felt like two wrongs make things no less than twice as wrong. Perhaps you disagree???

This from the majority that has created a system of racial bias that favors themselves for at least 400 years

Now all of sudden when you see the system of racial oppression falling apart they scream about losing their "America" and argue for equal treatment & fairness even though they've never practiced it before

There's a huge difference in the two wrongs you refer to...

One actually has occurred...the other one is imagined, speculated

You're arguing that one that actually occurred shouldn't be addressed and accountable because the imagined speculated one COULD occur?


You have a warped sense of accountability...a racially based view
 
My opinion is that if you think those are the only 2 outcomes possible then it says more about your level of thinking

Its an admission that racial retribution is the only game in town

Very Christian of you

I think your mistake is that you're assuming too much. I never stated or intimated that they were the only two options.

My mistake was once again attempting a rational conversation with you. That's not what you are here for...and you simply won't have it.


This from the majority that has created a system of racial bias that favors themselves for at least 400 years

Now all of sudden when you see the system of racial oppression falling apart they scream about losing their "America" and argue for equal treatment & fairness even though they've never practiced it before



There's a huge difference in the two wrongs you refer to...

One actually has occurred...the other one is imagined, speculated

You're arguing that one that actually occurred shouldn't be addressed and accountable because the imagined speculated one COULD occur?


You have a warped sense of accountability...a racially based view

So you do believe two wrongs would make a right? We have it coming?
 
I think your mistake is that you're assuming too much. I never stated or intimated that they were the only two options.

Did you present any other options?

You asked me a either "this" or "that" question

My mistake was once again attempting a rational conversation with you. That's not what you are here for...and you simply won't have it.

Actually it was a conversation I was having with havendiddy that you entered into with a bunch of stupidity

So you do believe two wrongs would make a right? We have it coming?

Who's claiming that 2 wrongs will even exist?

As of right now, the only wrong that has been committed is the white supremacist principle that the majority has employed

Don't be so sure that non-white people will be as corrupt as you
 
Did you present any other options?

You asked me a either "this" or "that" question

Ahhh...it's my fault that you assumed too much? Gotcha.


Actually it was a conversation I was having with havendiddy that you entered into with a bunch of stupidity

As I said, my mistake for treating you like a rational person.


Who's claiming that 2 wrongs will even exist?

You're certainly implying that we have it coming.


As of right now, the only wrong that has been committed is the white supremacist principle that the majority has employed

Don't be so sure that non-white people will be as corrupt as you

Feel free to apologize for the color of skin some people were born with. For me, I see slavery and the unequal protection under the law that followed as a blight on our otherwise worthy experiment. I'm in no rush to repeat any similar mistake moving forward...even if you think we have it coming.

You can have the last word. Having this or any similar conversation with you is the dumbest thing I do in a day.
 
timmer was taught at an early age to blame the refs when he lost

6pgu4l.jpg

While ray ray sits on the bench wishing for a participation trophy. Daddy, go get me a trophy! I want one!
 
I still believe that there's a middle. I believe I'm middle right and imho you are middle left.

Not a judgment, just my take.
Fair point and politely put.

I think it depends on type of issue (social, economic) and your peer cohort (Deep South, MW, NE, etc.).

On social issues, I am middle left/libertarian. Abortion is not worth regulating, fighting over - same with gay rights. Now, if Kansas is any guide - many R, feel similarly (for what it is worth).

On economic issues, I am middle right/libertarian but want an activist government role in trust busting and common sense regulations (e.g. home building codes). I fundamentally am suspicious of an monopolies from Standard Oil to Randy W. and the NEA.

On security issues, I am pro-border, pro-police and even pro-FBI (Father in law was an agent), but the above have their flaws.

Pairing #2 and #3 together, my view on the failing of George Floyd? Race - sure. Really failing? Police Unions and Amy Klobuchar who let a guy with 18 citations back on the streets.

In the Deep South, I would be viewed as center-left, no question. In Chicago or Seattle, I am center-right or even potentially right-wing.

I believe in fair and open dialogue and critical thinking. I have no issue in being wrong (in part or full) on an issue, acknowledging and move on. I also try not to pre-judge items if I can and be clear on what NEXT information I would need.

Finally, I am 60-70% artistotle and 30-40% plato. I believe in what works in the real world - and that the real world is messy and complicated.
 
That is the fear. And to that end, look to South Africa. Apartheid was clearly flawed and had to die a quick death...but now the pendulum has clearly swung way too far in the other direction.

There was a decade or two of harmony in SA. That ship has sailed.
That is a fair analog to look at. (and note that I have not looked closely at South Africa) When the previous minority (majority in population) race is put into power, do they adhere to the 1776 type principles of a color blind society, or is it a move to address prior wrongs.

If the latter, one can see how it is morally justified under some philosophies (e.g. "eye for an eye"), but you can also see how, in this case, the whites, are scared at what is to come and fight it or just leave.

And "just leave" could mean a diaspora to white countries or to "seceed". It is why you hear that talk (quietly) in certain MAGA circles and even on this board.
 
Last edited:
Ahhh...it's my fault that you assumed too much? Gotcha.

You're continuing to ask if 2 wrongs make a right.

Like non-white people must make the same "wrong" that you are admitting white people have

You're certainly implying that we have it coming.
I implied no such thing.


Feel free to apologize for the color of skin some people were born with. For me, I see slavery and the unequal protection under the law that followed as a blight on our otherwise worthy experiment.

That "blight" is occurring today...right now...currently.
You write as though its something that happened in the past and no longer exists

Unequal protection under the law and a lot of other constitutional violations have never stopped occurring in this country.


I'm in no rush to repeat any similar mistake moving forward...even if you think we have it coming.

Do you have any clue how dumb & racist your statement is?

You're in no rush to what? Dole out constitutional rights?
Newsflash...you aren't in charge of when people have those rights

What a white privilege thought...

Not only that whites are handing out constitutional rights but are also in charge of how quickly they should be afforded to non-white people because of their imagined fear

bama's "thinking" is stereotypical of a white southern police officer

To him its inevitable that some form of racial retribution should be expected since that's what white people have been doing since they arrived in the Americas

And so lets be sure the non-white people don't commit the same "mistake" that white people did to them

Let me soothe your racial fear....S Africa is NOT a good comparison to the USA

S Africa is country where the majority population (non-white) was corruptly ruled by a white minority

If we "rushed" things here we still wouldn't become S Africa because white people are still the majority population in this country


You can have the last word. Having this or any similar conversation with you is the dumbest thing I do in a day.

bama is sure of two things:

White people are in charge of the timing of ganting constitutional rights to non-white people

Non-white people are a threat because they must be seeking retribution for what white people have done to them


I'm sure you accomplish dumber things in your life than post here...

But your right. You're posts here are pretty f#kking dumb
 
That is a fair analog to look at. (and note that I have not looked closely at South Africa) When the minority race is put into power, do they adhere to the 1776 type principles of a color blind society, or is it a move to address prior wrongs.

In S Africa the minority race is the white European descendants

The oppressed population in S Africa has always dramatically outnumbered in power minority
Entirely different dynamic than the USA which makes the comparison questionable

In the US history shows us the "color blind principle" existed in writing but not in practice.

So what has the majority race in America been adhering to?

If the latter, one can see how it is morally justified under some philosophies (e.g. "eye for an eye"), but you can also see how, in this case, the whites, are scared at what is to come and fight it or just leave.

Of course whites may fear that...but that can't justify not adhering to the constitution or deciding to delay someone's civil rights because of that unrealized fear

And "just leave" could mean a diaspora to white countries or to "seceed". It is why you hear that talk (quietly) in certain MAGA circles and even on this board.

Agree 100%
 
In S Africa the minority race is the white European descendants

The oppressed population in S Africa has always dramatically outnumbered in power minority
Entirely different dynamic than the USA which makes the comparison questionable

In the US history shows us the "color blind principle" existed in writing but not in practice.

So what has the majority race in America been adhering to?



Of course whites may fear that...but that can't justify not adhering to the constitution or deciding to delay someone's civil rights because of that unrealized fear



Agree 100%
I edited my first post. I meant prior minority.

The comparison, which is really the only we have historically and raised by Bama and not myself, specifically, is not perfect as, to your point, it is not a 90% black population (we are only at 13% or so, and will be diluted by hispanic migration) it is multi-cultural.

On Color Blind, one can argue, very successfully (Jon Meacham, a long time classmate of mine) did that really we cannot speak of a true color blind society until 1965. It is why CRT (regardless of where and how it should be taught) has intellectual resonance outside of Marxist schools of thought.

Post 1965, we have clearly moved there and in many areas are very successful. Profoundly so. Obama (for whatever you thought of him) was elected with a majority white population. Take his skin color and name off and just listen to him and he is indistinguishable from any other very well educated center-left liberal. That is a success (again, regardless of what you think of specific policies).

Is the concern legitimate? Of course it is. We have not seen a peaceful, color-blind transition of power from a single to a multi-racial society. How likely is it to take root? If it does, how will it emerge, that is for discussion and hopefully good willed action.

p.s. my issue with CRT, is that I have never thought about race so much until May of 2020. I heard the N word when I went to college in the South, but never past 1992. The challenge in CRT is not in the historical look back, but rather in the teaching and then the implementation of the "E" of DEI.

As an example, there are large firms who, during hiring freezes, will ONLY hire those under the DEI cohort. For some firms that may mean women (of all colors), native blacks, native americans plus one additional. The first three, especially the last two, make sense.

The fourth is hispanics.

Why hispanics is the question then. What makes their condition unique? They should be free from racism, of course, but why special dispensation? Spanish and Portugese started the trans-contiental slave trade. CRT is what leads to these kind of outcomes that, as noted on the right, divide and create concern and far worse potential outcomes.
 
It is not the only transition we have historically.

Every former European colony worldwide serves as some comparison...some better than others but what makes S Africa more representative than say the Bahamas or Argentina?

Everywhere European imperialism eventually led to a country's independence from European control serves as a possibility of what America could result in if it lived up to its promise in the Declaration of Independence & Constitution

Cherrypicking South Africa to validate white people's fear is dishonest

I categorically disagree with your statement

"Is the concern legitimate? Of course it is. We have not seen a peaceful, color-blind transition of power from a single to a multi-racial society. How likely is it to take root? If it does, how will it emerge, that is for discussion and hopefully good willed action.

We know how those transitions have occurred...and in almost every case it does not turn into S Africa.


Classmate of Meachum, huh?
I like him a lot
 
That is a fair analog to look at. (and note that I have not looked closely at South Africa) When the previous minority (majority in population) race is put into power, do they adhere to the 1776 type principles of a color blind society, or is it a move to address prior wrongs.

If the latter, one can see how it is morally justified under some philosophies (e.g. "eye for an eye"), but you can also see how, in this case, the whites, are scared at what is to come and fight it or just leave.

And "just leave" could mean a diaspora to white countries or to "seceed". It is why you hear that talk (quietly) in certain MAGA circles and even on this board.

There are open calls for racial violence occurring in SA right now. Not just against people with white skin fwiw.




 
You're continuing to ask if 2 wrongs make a right.

Like non-white people must make the same "wrong" that you are admitting white people have


I implied no such thing.




That "blight" is occurring today...right now...currently.
You write as though its something that happened in the past and no longer exists

Unequal protection under the law and a lot of other constitutional violations have never stopped occurring in this country.




Do you have any clue how dumb & racist your statement is?

You're in no rush to what? Dole out constitutional rights?
Newsflash...you aren't in charge of when people have those rights

What a white privilege thought...

Not only that whites are handing out constitutional rights but are also in charge of how quickly they should be afforded to non-white people because of their imagined fear

bama's "thinking" is stereotypical of a white southern police officer

To him its inevitable that some form of racial retribution should be expected since that's what white people have been doing since they arrived in the Americas

And so lets be sure the non-white people don't commit the same "mistake" that white people did to them

Let me soothe your racial fear....S Africa is NOT a good comparison to the USA

S Africa is country where the majority population (non-white) was corruptly ruled by a white minority

If we "rushed" things here we still wouldn't become S Africa because white people are still the majority population in this country




bama is sure of two things:

White people are in charge of the timing of ganting constitutional rights to non-white people

Non-white people are a threat because they must be seeking retribution for what white people have done to them


I'm sure you accomplish dumber things in your life than post here...

But your right. You're posts here are pretty f#kking dumb

You aren't here to have rational discussions. Stopped reading about halfway through.
 
It is not the only transition we have historically.

Every former European colony worldwide serves as some comparison...some better than others but what makes S Africa more representative than say the Bahamas or Argentina?

Everywhere European imperialism eventually led to a country's independence from European control serves as a possibility of what America could result in if it lived up to its promise in the Declaration of Independence & Constitution

Cherrypicking South Africa to validate white people's fear is dishonest

I categorically disagree with your statement

"Is the concern legitimate? Of course it is. We have not seen a peaceful, color-blind transition of power from a single to a multi-racial society. How likely is it to take root? If it does, how will it emerge, that is for discussion and hopefully good willed action.

We know how those transitions have occurred...and in almost every case it does not turn into S Africa.


Classmate of Meachum, huh?
I like him a lot
I appreciate the note, but one ask: if we are going to exchange ideas, can we please avoid characterizing comments such as "dishonest". I will do the same.

If you wish to say, "you should expand your aperture to include other transitions such as Argentina and the Bahama", then that is appropriate. I am not a historian, so I use these exchanges to learn, understand and evolve.

Hope that makes sense.
 
I appreciate the note, but one ask: if we are going to exchange ideas, can we please avoid characterizing comments such as "dishonest". I will do the same.

If you wish to say, "you should expand your aperture to include other transitions such as Argentina and the Bahama", then that is appropriate. I am not a historian, so I use these exchanges to learn, understand and evolve.

Hope that makes sense.

Not a problem at all....I didn't mean to say you were dishonest.
I apologize if that's how it came across.

I meant to say that idea that S Africa was the only comparison we can make is incorrect.
 
  • Like
Reactions: grandhavendiddy
I appreciate the note, but one ask: if we are going to exchange ideas, can we please avoid characterizing comments such as "dishonest". I will do the same.

If you wish to say, "you should expand your aperture to include other transitions such as Argentina and the Bahama", then that is appropriate. I am not a historian, so I use these exchanges to learn, understand and evolve.

Hope that makes sense.

Bonne chance.
 
There are open calls for racial violence occurring in SA right now. Not just against people with white skin fwiw.




Whether or not South Africa is the conclusive example can be debated, but it is an important one. It has devolved very quickly.

Very quickly. If I were a resident, I would sell and go to the USA or Western European country. As part of the post-colonial era, these countries (Britain, Holland) should make efforts to resettle, based on income and ability.
 
There are open calls for racial violence occurring in SA right now. Not just against people with white skin fwiw.






There are open calls for racial violence all over the planet right now

CPAC just had a open racist foreign leader as a featured speaker
White supremacist nationalists openly call for a race wars in multiple countries
White supremacist "replacement theory" has been mainstreamed by the GOP

This means its justified to "not rush into" respecting civil rights?
 
Whether or not South Africa is the conclusive example can be debated, but it is an important one. It has devolved very quickly.

Well, that's the thing...I never claimed it was THE conclusive example. I merely cited it as AN example. Ray pretended otherwise.

He went off on tagents and I didn't care enough to correct him. Because why would I? He's a freaking lunatic.




Very quickly. If I were a resident, I would sell and go to the USA or Western European country. As part of the post-colonial era, these countries (Britain, Holland) should make efforts to resettle, based on income and ability.

They should leave the only country they've ever known because the racists are racist?

Imagine giving that sort of advice to POC if white people were fomenting violence upon them. That's less socially acceptable, right?

Racism is wrong. It doesn't matter AT ALL what color skin the racist has nor does it matter what color skin his victims have. It's just wrong, always.
 
There are open calls for racial violence all over the planet right now

CPAC just had a open racist foreign leader as a featured speaker
White supremacist nationalists openly call for a race wars in multiple countries
White supremacist "replacement theory" has been mainstreamed by the GOP

This means its justified to "not rush into" respecting civil rights?

You aren't a rational person so I won't be having this debate with you.

If you ever consistently behave like a rational person, perhaps I will reconsider...but certainly not before then.
 
Whether or not South Africa is the conclusive example can be debated, but it is an important one. It has devolved very quickly.

Very quickly. If I were a resident, I would sell and go to the USA or Western European country. As part of the post-colonial era, these countries (Britain, Holland) should make efforts to resettle, based on income and ability.

More important than all of the other countries of the world in your opinion?

European colonialism occurred all over the world.
There are far more countries than just S Africa...

Most of the countries that were colonized have achieved their independence.
Why are their cases any more or less important than S Africa?

By sheer number, the native populations of all of those countries haven't openly called for racial violence in any major or material movement

(It hasn't happened in S Africa either)

I suspect the desire to sell & go to the USA or Europe is to avoid the conundrum of colonial rights of property ownership.

In the post colonial era, European descendant whites in S Africa had no intention of resettling....they wanted an independent white supremacist state

https://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/index_section14.shtml
In Southern Africa, European settlers wanted to cut the ties with Britain and Portugal, but retain white minority rule, excluding the African population. The fighting resulting from this was violent and destructive to the infrastructure of the countries involved and their independent neighbours.
 
Literally no one said South Africa was a more important example than all of the other countries around the world.

SA was merely an example. Not THE example. It was topical as violence has flared up there over the last few years against foreigners (mainly Indians) and whites.

We could have discussed Haiti and the Dominican Republic I guess...though that's far less topical as it was more or less settled between the two parties about 175 years ago.
 
The discussion was about majority groups recognizing minority rights

You expressed your concern about going in a hurry...remember your insistence that 2 wrongs don't make a right?

Well there are over 100 cases of European colonizers recognizing minority rights
Without the open racist calls you seem to be so focused on

Why is S Africa anymore relevant than another in respect to your fear of what could happen here in the US?

All white populations have experienced higher levels of violence than S Africa and I don't hear calls for slowing down their civil rights

Why isn't N Ireland an example of place where lethal violence has given way to a lasting peace?

Isn't that as representative as S Africa for what is possible?
 
The discussion was about majority groups recognizing minority rights

You expressed your concern about going in a hurry...remember your insistence that 2 wrongs don't make a right?

Well there are over 100 cases of European colonizers recognizing minority rights
Without the open racist calls you seem to be so focused on

Why is S Africa anymore relevant than another in respect to your fear of what could happen here in the US?

All white populations have experienced higher levels of violence than S Africa and I don't hear calls for slowing down their civil rights

Why isn't N Ireland an example of place where lethal violence has given way to a lasting peace?

Isn't that as representative as S Africa for what is possible?

I never said that SA was more relevant. I cited it as an example. Full stop.

I never said anything about slowing down civil rights. In fact in that post I said (referring historically) that apartheid needed to end immediately.

One issue that I believe that we are having, that I'm just now seeing, is our difference of opinion on what represents civil rights. I don't see the redistribution of wealth as a civil rights issue. You disagree I think. I can live with that.
 
I never said that SA was more relevant. I cited it as an example. Full stop.

The point is there are far more examples that are more representative than S Africa
Your fear of a S Africa type result in the USA is unfounded

I never said anything about slowing down civil rights. In fact in that post I said (referring historically) that apartheid needed to end immediately.

You also said this...

Feel free to apologize for the color of skin some people were born with. For me, I see slavery and the unequal protection under the law that followed as a blight on our otherwise worthy experiment. I'm in no rush to repeat any similar mistake moving forward...even if you think we have it coming.

The "similar mistake" in your opinion is racial retribution on whites, right?

What makes you believe that mistake would happen?
S Africa, right?

The point is there are far more examples that aren't racial retribution outcomes


One issue that I believe that we are having, that I'm just now seeing, is our difference of opinion on what represents civil rights. I don't see the redistribution of wealth as a civil rights issue. You disagree I think. I can live with that.

You mean stealing wealth by aggression & oppression isn't a civil rights issue?

Interesting
 
The point is there are far more examples that are more representative than S Africa
Your fear of a S Africa type result in the USA is unfounded

You didn't like my example. So noted.

That doesn't explain why you mischaracterized my use of SA as AN example. You made assumptions and never considered that those assumptions were off base.

You also said this.."I'm in no rush to repeat any similar mistake moving forward"

Meaning I'm in no rush to repeat the mistakes of slavery and of unequal protection under the law.

I never said anything about slowing down civil rights...I said the opposite in fact.

The "similar mistake" in your opinion is racial retribution on whites, right?

On anyone. Yes, including on whites.

What makes you believe that mistake would happen?
S Africa, right?

I would not say would...I'd say could.

I see racism in this country today from both sides. Neither one has the moral high ground on the other. It's evil and wrong in every instance.

The point is there are far more examples that aren't racial retribution outcomes

Glad to hear it. I'm not doubting you but could you cite some examples?


You mean stealing wealth by aggression & oppression isn't a civil rights issue?

Interesting

Careful now...we're just beginning to have a reasonable conversation.

That is not what I said. I said that I don't believe the redistribution of wealth is a civil rights issue.

Clearly slavery, oppression and unequal protection under the law is a civil rights issue.

Writing checks, pretending that will right past wrongs, is not imo.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT