Coaching or personnel?

[keyzer soze]

So I’m watching Miss State dismantle UK and it appears that every QB on their roster is better than any QB on Florida’s. Or LSU’s.
The second string guy, Thompson, was the Louisiana HS player of the year and 3 time state champ. LSU and Florida offered him but he went to State. Why?

I’ve been beating a dead horse about how the pro style system that Mac and Miles/Orgeron (and Jimbo to some degree) are running is outdated and won’t work anymore. The fact that Saban has abandonded it should help make my point. And now top tier schools like Florida and LSU are getting passed over by players because of the antiquated system that they run. The system doesn’t fit the players coming out of HS these days.

Take away Winston and Jimbos offenses at FSU look like Macs. I bet FSU fans are sick of being torched by Lamar Jackson. A guy that neither Mac or Jimbo wanted at QB.

 

[keyzer soze]

FWIW, Miss State has 14 guys on the roster who play receiver that are 6’3” or taller. Florida has 4 if you count all the TEs. And our TEs actually play TE. They are extra tackles. State started a WR today that is like 6’7” 270.

Simply put, we are playing a different game than everybody else on offense.......and it shows.

 

[sadgator]

Coaching.

 

[EvilWayz]

Helmets.

 

[Michi-Gator]

The Saban-ites are all stuck in the 1980’s. That offense doesn’t match the current talent pool. Even watch a school like Michigan who cannot field an offense using that same crap system. They were beat by Mich St who now uses a system involving an athletic QB. Arkansas can’t get out of its own way using that system. USC is getting the beating of a lifetime by ND, USC uses that system.

Bama uses a dual threat system. Clemson. Penn St. Ohio St. UGa will soon be switching.

Now, there are some teams who win throwing, but a lot of them in more wide open systems like at WVU and Washington St.

Whats really becomg outdated is the slow, moving, run on first and second, conservative ass offenses. Its tempo and aggressive play calling that are the new wave. Clock-killing offenses are a thing of the past.

I also saw a stat last year that schools using dual-threat type QBs are significantly more effective in the red zone

 

[bradleygator]

As far as style of offense, it's pretty glaring when you watch Harbaugh trying to grind out drives 3 and 4 yards at a time and you've got Penn St. guys running in space all over the field and ripping off big plays at will.

Why beat your head against the wall and make things tougher than they need to be on a bunch of young kids who cycle in and out every few years?

 

[sadgator]

Urb changed it all...just like Steve before him.

 

[HardeeWildcatFan]

So I’m watching Miss State dismantle UK and it appears that every QB on their roster is better than any QB on Florida’s. Or LSU’s.
The second string guy, Thompson, was the Louisiana HS player of the year and 3 time state champ. LSU and Florida offered him but he went to State. Why?

I’ve been beating a dead horse about how the pro style system that Mac and Miles/Orgeron (and Jimbo to some degree) are running is outdated and won’t work anymore. The fact that Saban has abandonded it should help make my point. And now top tier schools like Florida and LSU are getting passed over by players because of the antiquated system that they run. The system doesn’t fit the players coming out of HS these days.

Take away Winston and Jimbos offenses at FSU look like Macs. I bet FSU fans are sick of being torched by Lamar Jackson. A guy that neither Mac or Jimbo wanted at QB.

Hmmm I didn’t know they were running a Pro style ? Every true Pro style I’ve seen ran has two things one there are cut back runs that the RB chooses to run if the hole is there and a Pro Style utilizes a true full back… not on every play but a good percentage the FB is used…Mac does not use either one.

 

[HardeeWildcatFan]

The Saban-ites are all stuck in the 1980’s. That offense doesn’t match the current talent pool. Even watch a school like Michigan who cannot field an offense using that same crap system. They were beat by Mich St who now uses a system involving an athletic QB. Arkansas can’t get out of its own way using that system. USC is getting the beating of a lifetime by ND, USC uses that system.

Bama uses a dual threat system. Clemson. Penn St. Ohio St. UGa will soon be switching.

Now, there are some teams who win throwing, but a lot of them in more wide open systems like at WVU and Washington St.

Whats really becomg outdated is the slow, moving, run on first and second, conservative ass offenses. Its tempo and aggressive play calling that are the new wave. Clock-killing offenses are a thing of the past.

I also saw a stat last year that schools using dual-threat type QBs are significantly more effective in the red zone

Bama runs a true Pro Style and it works for them so how can you say it doesn’t work with the talent pool? The majority of pee wee and jumior high teams still run it or the i formation

 

[keyzer soze]

Hardee, it’s semantics. You are confusing a specific “offense” with an offensive system or philosophy. Bama’s QB ran for 1100 yards last year. He will go over 1000 again this year. What nfl “pro” QB does that? What pro system does that? Bama isn’t what we are describing as pro style. They literally don’t do what the pros do either. Not anymore.

You are right about some peewee team running the I-formation. They do it for the same reason Mac does it. It’s all they know. But NONE of the top HS programs run that stuff. It’s TOO QB DEPENDENT! It’s much easier to put your best athlete back there and go.

Sometimes you have a guy, like maybe Deshaun Watson who’s “pass first” he threw for almost 11,000 yards and 90 tds at Clemson. But he ran for 2,000 yards and 26 tds too.

Now maybe if Mac finds the next Peyton Manning he will light it up. The problem is, and trust me on this, these days Peyton Manning would be put in the weight room and stuck on the O-line. Tall, slow, white boys don’t play QB at the HS level anymore. Period.

The offensive concepts that Mac uses, no matter how you would like to label them, are outdated. Propping up a stiff back there on 3-5-7 step drops is too slow to be effective unless you have a guy with Tom Brady arm talent. Telegraphing where the ball is going on short yardage is dumb. Unless you have an NFL back and some NFL linemen. Even then why make it harder on yourself?

Why put 3 TEs in the game and run against an 11 man box. Everybody in the stadium knew that the RB was getting the ball. Everybody knew he was running to the unbalanced side. Look at the defenders in the pic pointing at the hole he’s going to run in. This is what we’re talking about. This is an Ace formation. It’s an old staple of the NFL. Even with this formation if there was ANY threat of a QB run it doubles your chance for success. It makes the defense have to defend both sides of the field.

Bottom line call it what you want. But it’s never going to improve if Mac doesn’t adapt to a system that not only fits the talent we have but fits the talent that’s available to recruit. Like I said Lamar Jackson could be our QB right now. How much different would things be if we actually had an offense that didn’t suck?

 

[Michi-Gator]

Hardee, it’s semantics. You are confusing a specific “offense” with an offensive system or philosophy. Bama’s QB ran for 1100 yards last year. He will go over 1000 again this year. What nfl “pro” QB does that? What pro system does that? Bama isn’t what we are describing as pro style. They literally don’t do what the pros do either. Not anymore.

You are right about some peewee team running the I-formation. They do it for the same reason Mac does it. It’s all they know. But NONE of the top HS programs run that stuff. It’s TOO QB DEPENDENT! It’s much easier to put your best athlete back there and go.

Sometimes you have a guy, like maybe Deshaun Watson who’s “pass first” he threw for almost 11,000 yards and 90 tds at Clemson. But he ran for 2,000 yards and 26 tds too.

Now maybe if Mac finds the next Peyton Manning he will light it up. The problem is, and trust me on this, these days Peyton Manning would be put in the weight room and stuck on the O-line. Tall, slow, white boys don’t play QB at the HS level anymore. Period.

The offensive concepts that Mac uses, no matter how you would like to label them, are outdated. Propping up a stiff back there on 3-5-7 step drops is too slow to be effective unless you have a guy with Tom Brady arm talent. Telegraphing where the ball is going on short yardage is dumb. Unless you have an NFL back and some NFL linemen. Even then why make it harder on yourself?

Why put 3 TEs in the game and run against an 11 man box. Everybody in the stadium knew that the RB was getting the ball. Everybody knew he was running to the unbalanced side. Look at the defenders in the pic pointing at the hole he’s going to run in. This is what we’re talking about. This is an Ace formation. It’s an old staple of the NFL. Even with this formation if there was ANY threat of a QB run it doubles your chance for success. It makes the defense have to defend both sides of the field.

Bottom line call it what you want. But it’s never going to improve if Mac doesn’t adapt to a system that not only fits the talent we have but fits the talent that’s available to recruit. Like I said Lamar Jackson could be our QB right now. How much different would things be if we actually had an offense that didn’t suck?

The problem with systems like Mac, Harbaugh, etc is you are telling the defense “my QB will be 3-5 steps behind the center on EVERY play”.

 

[instaGATOR]

NONE of the top HS programs run that stuff. It’s TOO QB DEPENDENT! It’s much easier to put your best athlete back there and go.

What offense did STA run to win the 2016 FL 7A State Championship?
In the 7A Championship game, their QB threw for 323 yds, 5 TD's.
Who was their QB, and where is he now?

 

[keyzer soze]

What offense did STA run to win the 2016 FL 7A State Championship?
In the 7A Championship game, their QB threw for 323 yds, 5 TD's.
Who was their QB, and where is he now?

They run a shotgun spread offense.

Jake Allen was the qb. Did you know it was his ONLY CAREER 300 yard game?

Did you also know that he only threw for 7 more career 200 yard games?

And the fact that his stiff unathletic rump is sitting on the bench at Florida kinda makes my point for me.

Either way STA is not a pro style I formation under center team. They don’t even have a TE on the roster. The recruiting services labeling Allen a “pro style” QB is a polite way of saying he is slow, unathletic and lacks agility.

We’re you trying to help me make my point? Thanks.

 

[keyzer soze]

Now if Allen goes to Tex Tech or WVU or Wash State he may be able to light it up. If he sees the field well enough and his accuracy is good enough and his release is quick enough and his arm is strong enough.
But even in that air raid offense a QB that’s a threat to pull it down and go a few times a game is a HUGE weapon.
The truth is though, the air raid style offense doesn’t win championships. You still have to run the ball. Still need to keep your defense and their offense off the field. Still need to wear the other team down. So the Meyer, Malzahn, Morris, Mullen type offense is a better option.

 

[oozie7]

Wouldn't say the Air Raid offense doesn't win championships, how can you? The schools that run that system aren't capable of winning a championship with ANY system, the only reason they're even competitive is because they run an Air Raid. Teams like Washington St. or Texas Tech don't get the recruits on either side of the ball to win big, their ONLY hope is to try to outscore people and sneak away some wins.

Spurrier's system was for all intents the Air Raid. OU ran it for years under Stoops and made it to 4 title games, they just ran into teams that were better than they were. The principles are very evident in other spread offenses also. We haven't really seen it at any big time schools to say it can't win mainly because those big time schools get top end recruits and don't have to try and win games on the margins like those smaller schools who run it.

 

[keyzer soze]

@oozie7 i believe that’s right. Except both those examples you gave, Spurrier and Stoops, were always able to run the ball. It’s true enough that Spurrier especially would do all his running in the second half. But nevertheless, he could run it. Every down if he needed to. They always had the ability to possess he ball and get short yardage and goal line yards. OU and Florida produced some NFL RBs along the way too.

In fact Steve’s most prolific passing year, 2001, didn’t produce a championship of any kind because we couldn’t run it. Had about a dozen third and fourth and shorts against Tennessee and couldn’t make any of them.

 

[keyzer soze]

Spurrier at Florida always ended up %50 run-%50 pass. Even though we all knew it was all about the passing game. You’ll never see that from Leach. But it looks like Holgerson is trying to adapt.

 

[46885]

@oozie7 i believe that’s right. Except both those examples you gave, Spurrier and Stoops, were always able to run the ball. It’s true enough that Spurrier especially would do all his running in the second half. But nevertheless, he could run it. Every down if he needed to. They always had the ability to possess he ball and get short yardage and goal line yards. OU and Florida produced some NFL RBs along the way too.

In fact Steve’s most prolific passing year, 2001, didn’t produce a championship of any kind because we couldn’t run it. Had about a dozen third and fourth and shorts against Tennessee and couldn’t make any of them.

We lost both games that year without Earnest Graham, and Gillespie as our back and had to throw on those downs...

 

[PacoGator19]

Air Raid doesn't win championships because they can't run the ball and can't close out close games. Sure it's exciting, scores lots of points but you won't win anything significant. Spurrier's offense wasn't Air Raid. It was just about a 50/50 balance pass/run ratio.

 

[oozie7]

Spurrier's passing CONCEPTS were absolutely Air Raid and he'd tell you that himself. He also used lots of run and shoot concepts. 'Air Raid' isn't an offense, it's a series of passing concepts that's very similar to a lot of the West coast concepts damn near everybody uses in their route tree. It doesnt automatically mean you line up and throw it 60 times a game, run-pass balance doesn't have anything to do with it. Lincoln Riley is an Air Raid guy And OU ran 60% of the time last year, doesn't mean they aren't an Air Raid base team.

And again this argument that Air Raid can't win championships...how do you know that? No program capable of winning a title other than UF or OU has run their concepts extensively. As if Washinton St. would win a title if they lined up and ran a prostyle offense or something. Y'all do realize the Patriots short passing game is entirely Air Raid concepts? All they run is dig, mesh, drag, slip screens, etc. It's why they've been able to utilize players like Welker and now Amendola for years. Guess what offense they played In?

 

[oozie7]

The 'you can't win a title with Air Raid' argument is no different than the ridiculous 'you can't win a title running a spread offense' argument that was so common years ago. The spread, spread option, run and shoot, Air Raid, etc. were all adapted by very small schools who didn't have talent to give them a chance to compete with bigger schools. Bigger schools didn't run those offenses because they didn't need to, they got the talent to line up and pound people.

Then lo and behold a few major programs started running the spread, won a title, now all of a sudden it's one of the most widely used offenses in the country. As more and more QB's get tutored at a younger age with personal QB coaches, 7-on-7, etc. sophisticated passing systems will become the norm and it'll be adapted by more schools and not just outmatched schools who have to do something different just to compete.

 

[keyzer soze]

Spurrier's passing CONCEPTS were absolutely Air Raid and he'd tell you that himself. He also used lots of run and shoot concepts. 'Air Raid' isn't an offense, it's a series of passing concepts that's very similar to a lot of the West coast concepts damn near everybody uses in their route tree. It doesnt automatically mean you line up and throw it 60 times a game, run-pass balance doesn't have anything to do with it. Lincoln Riley is an Air Raid guy And OU ran 60% of the time last year, doesn't mean they aren't an Air Raid base team.

And again this argument that Air Raid can't win championships...how do you know that? No program capable of winning a title other than UF or OU has run their concepts extensively. As if Washinton St. would win a title if they lined up and ran a prostyle offense or something. Y'all do realize the Patriots short passing game is entirely Air Raid concepts? All they run is dig, mesh, drag, slip screens, etc. It's why they've been able to utilize players like Welker and now Amendola for years. Guess what offense they played In?

I get what you’re saying. It’s the same argument that’s been had here about pro style. It’s semantics.
You are exactly right. Wash State and Tex Tech aren’t championship caliber teams. Regardless of the systems they run.
Now maybe if Allen played QB for a Spurrier type offense he could be very successful. But my point is that we don’t run that type of offense at Florida currently.

The teams that do run an Air Raid type offense now are WVU and TT and WSU. Those teams don’t have the correct overall offensive philosophy to win championships in my opinion. I know they aren’t name brands. But you said yourself that OU was in the big 12 with these teams and won and played for championships. I just think their success was because they ran the ball.....and at least tried to play defense.

 

[PacoGator19]

My definition of an "Air Raid" offense is an offense that is throwing the ball 45-65 times a game.

 

[oozie7]

I get what you’re saying. It’s the same argument that’s been had here about pro style. It’s semantics.
You are exactly right. Wash State and Tex Tech aren’t championship caliber teams. Regardless of the systems they run.
Now maybe if Allen played QB for a Spurrier type offense he could be very successful. But my point is that we don’t run that type of offense at Florida currently.

The teams that do run an Air Raid type offense now are WVU and TT and WSU. Those teams don’t have the correct overall offensive philosophy to win championships in my opinion. I know they aren’t name brands. But you said yourself that OU was in the big 12 with these teams and won and played for championships. I just think their success was because they ran the ball.....and at least tried to play defense.

We're not far off in agreement. I just think using teams like Texas Tech or Washington to argue Air Raid can't win championships is an ass backwards argument. They aren't winning championships regardless of system because they don't get the talent to. The entire reason they run Air Raid to begin with is because it's the only way they can hope to compete.

The only major program that has run it for an extended period of time is OU who moved from Leach to Kevin Wilson to Heupel to Riley and by any metric they were absolutely successful. 10+ conference titles, 4 title game appearances, multiple Heisman winning QB's etc. So that kills the myth right there. Much like the spread in its early stages we'll know more once bigger programs adapt the system. I mean is anybody under the impression that if Bama recruited for it and ran it they wouldn't win a title? It's talent first.

 

[keyzer soze]

My definition of an "Air Raid" offense is an offense that is throwing the ball 45-65 times a game.

I think that’s the general consensus. Just like we all think of pro style as TEs and FBs and I-formations and going under the center.

Oozie has a different perspective because he played and knows more about the game than average joe fan. It’s hard to discern between speaking in generalities and specifics. There are definitely air raid elements in most good passing offenses. Just like there are pro style elements in many good rushing offenses.

Everything in football has been done before. The modern spread is just an adaptation of the original single wing type offenses from the very beginnings of the Game.

Football needs more descriptive nomenclature.

 

[keyzer soze]

@oozie7 I think Bama could absolutely win running Air Raid. But the reason is because they would be able to do whatever they needed according to the situation. Because of the talent advantage.

Much like Spurrier in the 90s. If they were up 28 in the 3rd quarter they could just run it every down and kill the clock. And probably add to their lead. Or pound it on short yardage when needed.

No doubt I agree with Jimmy Johnson, “it’s not about the Xs and the Os., it’s about the Jimmys and the Joes.” My contention has been though, that in today’s world all the Jimmys and the Joes were built to run some form of shotgun spread. Not old Pro Style.

 

[instaGATOR]

Allen - 60.9% (157-of-258) for 2,311 yards, 27 TD's, 7 Ints.
He only played the 1st half in several games because of big leads.
Something that a sore-keyster leaves out for some reason...
He was tutored since age 13 by former Gator QB Eric Kresser.
Elite-11 Finalist.
Florida 7A State Champion (his best game, in his biggest game)
Obviously a no-talent bum, because a sore-keyster says so...
Mc-Nuss are just wasting ship-$$ on him because......

But since some here have erronerously claimed that Allen ONLY looked good because he had great teammates at STA, how about when he was just a Soph at Cardinal Gibbions? Looks to me like he could already make all the throws, including throwing on the run when rolling out, and he could make the calls to change the play. Take a look and see for yourselves, and remember, just a Soph here.
http://www.hudl.com/profile/3701605/jake-allen
=========

QB's that the current staff chose to bring to UF include:

X-fers
Luke Del Rio 6-1 215 rsJr - wish he was already Gonzo

Luke Del Rio @Ldelrio12 It’s gonna be over ONE HUNDRED degrees tonight on October 24th in Los Angeles. But global warming doesn’t exist

#WorldSeries2017 1:53 PM - Oct 24, 2017
-----

I'd trust anything that an average, glass-jawed, 2nd Tier QB says, especially when he agrees with Al Gore, 'the inventor of the Internet.' From dink & dunk junk passing, to junk science. Typical...
I can't wait for you to return to the left-coast, where you rightly belong.

Austin Appleby 6-4 240 Grad Xfer - Gonzo
Malik Zaire 6-0 226 Grad Xfer - soon to be Gonzo
-----
QB/WR Tucker Nordman 6-1 190 rsSo (HS QB, now at WR)
(he caught Toney's TD pass in the O&B game)
=====

Feleipe' Franks 6-6 220 rsFr
Kyle Trask 6-5 239 rsFr (72%, 17 TD's, ZERO Ints)
Nick Sproles 6-2 211 rsFr
-----
Kadarius Toney 5-11 194 Fr (Ath, can play any 'skill' position)
Jake Allen 6-3 200 Fr
Jake Ruskell 6-2 195 Fr
-----
Matt Corral 6-2 185 4.7/40 (rivals & Hudl)
(maxpreps is now listing him at 6-3 205? I'm calling bs on that until I see something 'official' on him -- ESPN & 247 6-2 196)
Sr - 7 Gms, 104/170, 61.2%, 1,898 yds, 19 TD's, 5 Ints, PER 124.6
http://www.hudl.com/profile/4023648/matt-corral
He looks great in HS to me, but he's just another very skilled QB for the roster. IF they never put him in a game, he'll be just as good at Trask/Allen have been.
===========

My one big bitch on the current staff is their 'depth-chart' choices, the most glaring to me being with the QB's.

The 2nd most glaring is with the OG's and at TE.
And while I don't agree with all that they do, I still like the current staff, for the most part....

 

[oozie7]

@oozie7 I think Bama could absolutely win running Air Raid. But the reason is because they would be able to do whatever they needed according to the situation. Because of the talent advantage.

Much like Spurrier in the 90s. If they were up 28 in the 3rd quarter they could just run it every down and kill the clock. And probably add to their lead. Or pound it on short yardage when needed.

No doubt I agree with Jimmy Johnson, “it’s not about the Xs and the Os., it’s about the Jimmys and the Joes.” My contention has been though, that in today’s world all the Jimmys and the Joes were built to run some form of shotgun spread. Not old Pro Style.

All good points my man, and I agree with you on that. It's going to continue to keep happening too because even with the major programs they have SOME glaring weakness usually. Teams have figured out that you can go a lot further with one great player in a spread offense than you can in a prostyle offense. So spreading those guys out and creating 1-on-1 matchups is the way to go. If you have a bunch of guys that can win 1-on-1's then even better. And that's why so many HS's run it too. You don't need to have a QB with a college ready arm who can execute 3, 5, and 7 step drops to move down the field. Just put your best athlete there, get a numbers advantage, and let them make plays.

 

[46885]

The 'you can't win a title with Air Raid' argument is no different than the ridiculous 'you can't win a title running a spread offense' argument that was so common years ago. The spread, spread option, run and shoot, Air Raid, etc. were all adapted by very small schools who didn't have talent to give them a chance to compete with bigger schools. Bigger schools didn't run those offenses because they didn't need to, they got the talent to line up and pound people.

Then lo and behold a few major programs started running the spread, won a title, now all of a sudden it's one of the most widely used offenses in the country. As more and more QB's get tutored at a younger age with personal QB coaches, 7-on-7, etc. sophisticated passing systems will become the norm and it'll be adapted by more schools and not just outmatched schools who have to do something different just to compete.

It's a lot like the smaller schools back in the 70's and even up to now acquiring the option and veer

 

[instaGATOR]

~ Allen only looked good because of the players around him at STA.
This Hudl of Allen as a Soph at Cardinal Gibbions puts the lie that BS.
http://www.hudl.com/profile/3701605/jake-allen

~ Now, I wonder why none of those phootball genius types that made or agreed with that bogus claim, have failed to make the same observation about Corral at All World Poly in Calif?

My own observation on both is that they are/were great HS QB's.
Leaves me wondering why Allen is not even given a chance, before Corral gets here? A bird in the hand vs a bird in the bush it seems to me.

Allen 6-3 200 4.7/40 -- Elite 11 Finalist
Corral 6-2 185 4.7/40 - Elite 11 Finalist

 

[keyzer soze]

Will Grier HS stats
Total Passing Yards 14565
Passing TDs 195
Passing Yards/Game 383.3

Carries 331
Rushing Yards 2955
Yards Per Carry 8.9
Rushing Yards Per Game 77.8


He went 35 for 42 837 yards and 10TDs in a playoff game as a Jr.

Mac didn’t want Grier.

Let that sink in.

Insta, posting Allen’s height, weight and 40 time don’t mean dick. I’m sorry he’s not even on the same planet as Grier.
To think he’s the answer to any of our problems is a fantasy. Mac don’t want good players at QB and is unable to develop the bad players that he signs.

Grier’s stats above are for 38 games. Corral is sitting at 37 right now.

Corral’s stats.
Total Passing Yards 9581
Passing TDs 93
Passing Yards/Game 258.9

Carries 208
Rushing Yards 840
Yards Per Carry 4.0
Rushing Yards Per Game 22.7

Not bad, but we’ve seen Mac squander better. Bottom line, there isn’t an 18 year old kid out there anywhere that’s gonna fix this dumpster fire.