Basketball Woes
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You want to bet? Cal cant win without a huge advantage in talent and that is a fact that has been proven before. Now, give all the NBA talent he has to about 30 coaches and they will win titles. Cal is the best recruiter in the game, hands down. But as far as coaching goes, he is middle of the pack at best. A flipping chimp could coach this KY team to a title this year.
I thought Florida played us as tough as anyone has this year. Looked like Booker had cramping problems. Both teams had some players limping.
In all fairness, Horford shuffled his feet before the contact with Towns. The walk was first.
The "Cal can't coach and has never had a good team without 6 NBA players" line is not accurate. Calipari took a UMASS team to the final four with only 1 NBA talent. Same in Memphis. Now at UK he has had a lot of talent. But so has other teams. UCLA had 3 players go pro last year. Anybody remember what they ended up doing?
Remember the Kansas team with all the NBA players like Pierce, etc.. they didn't go far.
So just because you have talent, and we are always very young, doesn't mean that coaching is moot.
In all fairness, Horford shuffled his feet before the contact with Towns. The walk was first.
The "Cal can't coach and has never had a good team without 6 NBA players" line is not accurate. Calipari took a UMASS team to the final four with only 1 NBA talent. Same in Memphis. Now at UK he has had a lot of talent. But so has other teams. UCLA had 3 players go pro last year. Anybody remember what they ended up doing?
Remember the Kansas team with all the NBA players like Pierce, etc.. they didn't go far.
So just because you have talent, and we are always very young, doesn't mean that coaching is moot.
Billy was yet again coaching circles around shout out loud with a bunch of bums and UK was completely puzzled out there. They kept trying to run at the basket and play their AAU ball and we weren't letting them in the first half and after that they just started shooting jumpshots in the 2nd half along with Free throws because they get some every time they get it past halfcourt safely. Cal is the same and will be forever, I wonder if Florida would have 4 wins if he was coaching these losers.
Interesting takes. The thing about Cal is he has proved he can do it without as well. When he was at Umass he was winning 30 games a year at a school with zero basketball tradition and not many elite players. Yes he had Camby, but lots of teams have one good player. His focus has always been defense and that's a trademark of most all of his teams. Now with all the talent, the focus is different. Certainly they were worse than expected last year during the regular season, but his teams play for the end of the year. He can change things around during the year and then gets them prepared at the right time. Most of his teams turn it on mid February.
As far as the game, I haven't seen Florida that much this year, but I would certainly be frustrated, as Donovan expressed in the post game. If they played like that the whole year, as they did tonight, the season outlook is much different. What seems to be this teams problems? Work ethic, chemistry?
As far as the game, I haven't seen Florida that much this year, but I would certainly be frustrated, as Donovan expressed in the post game. If they played like that the whole year, as they did tonight, the season outlook is much different. What seems to be this teams problems? Work ethic, chemistry?
Cal's last 3 seasons at Memphis were his best. Those teams produced 7 NBA players including D Rose. A bunch of teams make the tourney, but only a handful every year are truly title contenders. Memphis didn't become a title contender until those last 3 seasons when Cal had loaded the program with NBA caliber talent. At Umass he made a run to the final 4 with two nba players including Camby. Now most of those wins were later vacated I believe.
Last year Billy took a team to the final 4 that has produced 0 NBA players thus far. Maybe Prather will catch on and P Young is playing in Turkey I believe.
This year's ky team has 9 burger boys and may have every player on the team in the nba. Cal has to overwhelm you with talent to win. Other coaches don't. How many nba players are on this current Florida team that had sister banging ky on the ropes for a lot of the game?
Last year Billy took a team to the final 4 that has produced 0 NBA players thus far. Maybe Prather will catch on and P Young is playing in Turkey I believe.
This year's ky team has 9 burger boys and may have every player on the team in the nba. Cal has to overwhelm you with talent to win. Other coaches don't. How many nba players are on this current Florida team that had sister banging ky on the ropes for a lot of the game?
Really? That's not what all you inbreed cat fans were saying at the end of last year. Flooded our board to tell us how much better you guys were since you went one game farther in the tourney. Said the 0-3 didn't matter. Congrats, I am sure it was a long 700 days for you guys.
An ideal Donovan team has 3 lottery picks, a sharpshooter and a PG who can dish drive and score. A spare big man underneath and a couple of guards who can give the starters a break.
Calipari has shown he can take a ridiculously talented team and make them one of the better teams in the country. Donovan has shown he can take a ridiculously talented team and make them so much better than everybody else that the tournament is a foregone conclusion.
So what were his shoes and wallet made of last year during 0-3? Faux leather?Originally posted by WildCatForever69:
Cal skins Florida and makes alligator wallet..The Gators are alligator loafers..
Anyone think our recent change in style of play might be hurting our recruiting? Just something I've been thinking about. It seems in the early Billy D years we got a lot of highly regarded guards because we pushed tempo and played a fastbreak game shooting lots of threes. It seems we've gone to a more grind it out style and I don't see us attracting the elite guards that we used to. That's one of the reasons Austin Rivers supposedly left. Beal was probably the only one we've landed recently. I know Hill was a 5-star but everybody who watched him said he was raw and similar to Walker he got a high rating because of his insane athleticism, not necessarily his basketball talent.
I think Billy has been recruiting pretty good. We've got some good athletes and guys everybody was after. To ooz's point, I wonder is if Billy is giving up too much shooting to recruit and play good defensive athletes. Good inside players are so rare in college that you are really handcuffing yourself on offense if you don't have one or two knock down shooters on the floor all the time. Billy thought Frazier was one, but he just hasn't shot it like he did last year.
The past two years have just been an odd mix of offensive players. Last year's team overcame it and way overachieved because they did exactly what Billy wanted and worked hard at doing it. Also that team had some great personalities. Billy said Wilbekin played defense like he was mad at the guy across from him, and Pat Young is just an all time hard worker, competitor and great kid. Prather was steady as it gets.
This year on offense, everybody is waiting for someone else to take over. It looks like only Chiozza and Finney Smith want the ball. We need some shooters to emerge for next year. Hopefully, Frazier finds his shot, and I think Carter, Chiozza and Robinson can turn into good shooters. Hopefully we add one or two more with Francis coming back next year and the incoming freshmen.
The past two years have just been an odd mix of offensive players. Last year's team overcame it and way overachieved because they did exactly what Billy wanted and worked hard at doing it. Also that team had some great personalities. Billy said Wilbekin played defense like he was mad at the guy across from him, and Pat Young is just an all time hard worker, competitor and great kid. Prather was steady as it gets.
This year on offense, everybody is waiting for someone else to take over. It looks like only Chiozza and Finney Smith want the ball. We need some shooters to emerge for next year. Hopefully, Frazier finds his shot, and I think Carter, Chiozza and Robinson can turn into good shooters. Hopefully we add one or two more with Francis coming back next year and the incoming freshmen.
No. What has been affecting our recruiting is Billy and the staff aren't pounding the pavement as hard as they used to. They need to pick-up in regards to high school recruiting. They have resigned to taking too many transfers.
This post was edited on 2/15 9:26 PM by PacoGator19
Agree with both of you guys. Seems we've moved away from offense in favor of defense, the past few years we've just had a weird mix of talent on the floor. It started with those Walker teams, he was basically an undersized scoring guard but we asked him to run point and then played him beside another guy who was a natural point but provided limited scoring, all in favor of defense. And yea I don't like how many transfers we seem to be taking either. I'd rather get a HS kid and have him develop for 3-4 years as opposed to a transfer who might be gone in a year or two. We don't seem to be recruiting as strong as we did before.
I like the transfers as a response to kids leaving early, but I think you definitely see this year that it is hard to play cohesive team ball when bringing in players from different programs and mixing them in with a bunch of freshmen, particularly for a coach as regimented as Billy. I think that's why Kurtz plays so much.
We may be getting a little carried away with it, particularly if it takes away from our high school recruiting either by clogging up the roster or by giving the staff a little less incentive to recruit preps. There's a difference between bringing in Finney Smith, who was ACC freshman of the year and looking to upgrade, and bringing in a player like Horford, who is basically a cast off just filling a roster spot. I doubt we'd be too much worse off if Walker were getting Horford's minutes, and Walker might actually have improved some by now.
We may be getting a little carried away with it, particularly if it takes away from our high school recruiting either by clogging up the roster or by giving the staff a little less incentive to recruit preps. There's a difference between bringing in Finney Smith, who was ACC freshman of the year and looking to upgrade, and bringing in a player like Horford, who is basically a cast off just filling a roster spot. I doubt we'd be too much worse off if Walker were getting Horford's minutes, and Walker might actually have improved some by now.
Unbelievable. They play good defense, stay on their feet, and the guy hits a 25 footer. Bummer man.
Obviously not a talented team, but this is also Billy's worst coaching job of his career. Some guys like Walker and Carter he has on very short leashes. Our last two offensive possessions were horrible. Kurtz, who I love is an offensive liability and he is on the floor while Eli Carter is sitting over on the bench. At least on the last possession call a time out and get Carter on the floor for Kurtz and improve our chances to score.
I'm a huge Billy D fan but he has done an poor job with this team this year. Worst coaching job he's ever done. Poor rotations, poor starting lineups, pulling guys too quickly while others get to continually mess up and stay in the game. I also think he plays too many guys. He needs to shorten the bench to 8 players and that's it. Give props to Kurtz but he really has no business playing especially at the end of games. If we are going to lose just lose with youngsters like Chiozza and Robinson and even Walker instead of a walk on. I will also say that Billy and his staff need to do a much better job recruiting high school talent. They are getting outworked right now. I would love to have Anthony Grant back on the staff. After 3 Elite 8s and a Final Four in 4 years plus 2 national titles recruiting should be much easier than it has been.
I agree with a lot of Paco's points, particularly relating to Billy's rotations. He's always had a quick hook, but this year, he's only got 2 or 3 guys who can score. If he doesn't have 2 in there at a time, they're not going to score, plain and simple. They have a 3-7 minute scoring drought every half, which is insane in college basketball. Carter and Walker were effective in the first half and then barely played in the second. I respect Kurtz, but Murphy should be getting all of his minutes.
All that said, this probably isn't a tournament team anyway, and Billy is choosing to make this year an education.
All that said, this probably isn't a tournament team anyway, and Billy is choosing to make this year an education.
Yep I agree with what you said Bradley. I also would bench Kasey Hill myself. He can't shoot, he can't defend, he's not finishing around the rim and he doesn't know how to run an offense. He's such a liability offensively that he hurts his own teammates and their opportunity to make offensive plays. It like 4 vs 5 when Hill has the ball. Worst starting PG Billy has ever had.
Probably isn't a tournament team?
Guys...we are 12-12 with 6 games left in the regular season.
Unless you think we go on a crazy run and win out the rest of the season before the NCAA tournament, there's NO shot. Hell, at this point I'll be surprised if we finish with a winning record.
Guys...we are 12-12 with 6 games left in the regular season.
Unless you think we go on a crazy run and win out the rest of the season before the NCAA tournament, there's NO shot. Hell, at this point I'll be surprised if we finish with a winning record.
I meant not talented enough to make the tournament even if Billy were pushing all the right buttons, which is arguable. They're saying 5 or 6 teams from the sec to the tourney, and I doubt there are 6 teams with better talent than us. UK and LSU definitely.
We're running three 5 stars out there plus dfs, acc freshman of the year, frazier, a key part of a final 4 team, carter, who scored 15 a game as a freshman in the big east, plus Chiozza and Murphy. On paper, you would think that would be a top 6 team in a mediocre conference.
We're running three 5 stars out there plus dfs, acc freshman of the year, frazier, a key part of a final 4 team, carter, who scored 15 a game as a freshman in the big east, plus Chiozza and Murphy. On paper, you would think that would be a top 6 team in a mediocre conference.
Meh, whatever. With the regular season being so meaningless I just can't get upset about basketball losses. These guys can still get to the dance by winning the conference tournament. It isn't likely, but the possibility is still there. So basically, none of these games mean anything.
Well, they certainly don't mean anything for the Gators at this point. If Kentucky loses to someone else, it's not too crazy that these guys could win the tournament. At this point, I'm really just hoping they can get to the NIT final four, so I can go check them out at MSG.
One more loss and this team will be tied for 3rd most losses in a season under Donovan.
Just sayin...with the way we're playing, I DO think we will get to 15 wins...maybe 16...but if the over under were 16.5, Id be really hard pressed to take the over.
Just sayin...with the way we're playing, I DO think we will get to 15 wins...maybe 16...but if the over under were 16.5, Id be really hard pressed to take the over.
If Hill and Walker played even to the minimum standard of what was expected this is probably a Sweet 16 level type team. I still can't believe the play of those two.
Billy must have taken a dumb pill from last year to this year. Last year, his team won 36 games, won 31 straight and became the first team in SEC history to win 18 regular season games and 21 overall games in a single season. Last year he was lauded, by Gator fans and others as having put together one of the best coaching jobs of his career. If he had three lottery picks last year, his coaching would have been seen a great. The fact that he did it without one NBA starter was astounding.
So, how did he get so dumb this year? Last year, he rotated eight or nine guys. This year is is rotating eight or nine guys. Last year he changed line-ups due to suspensions, eligibility and injuries. This year is is changing line-ups due to suspension, eligibility and injuries. Plus he changes line-up due to poor performance. I laugh when I see fans criticize him for not benching a player not performing well in one breath, and in the second bitching that he rotates players too often. Billy is trying to find a combination that works. So far, he has not been unsuccessful;
Billy has well articulated the reasons for the poor performance. He says that most of it seem to be how the players react to adversity. The players seem to get down when their individual performance is not great and their defense suffers. Or they panic when the other team makes a run. Or they get too full of themselves when they make two or three great plays and forget to defend on the next possession. This sounds to me like a young, immature team. Billy has also criticized himself for not finding the right coaching methods to cure these ills.
Is this all Billy's fault? Yea, it is. He is the head coach. It is up to him to get his team to play at peak performance. But this is the worst shooting team he has ever had. I need to go back and look, but I will bet it is the worst at the FT line. Especially at critical times. And rarely do any of the players step up at the end of games and do something offensively to win a game.
This is just going to be a rare bad year for Billy. Not dissimilar to the two years after he won his second title.
So, how did he get so dumb this year? Last year, he rotated eight or nine guys. This year is is rotating eight or nine guys. Last year he changed line-ups due to suspensions, eligibility and injuries. This year is is changing line-ups due to suspension, eligibility and injuries. Plus he changes line-up due to poor performance. I laugh when I see fans criticize him for not benching a player not performing well in one breath, and in the second bitching that he rotates players too often. Billy is trying to find a combination that works. So far, he has not been unsuccessful;
Billy has well articulated the reasons for the poor performance. He says that most of it seem to be how the players react to adversity. The players seem to get down when their individual performance is not great and their defense suffers. Or they panic when the other team makes a run. Or they get too full of themselves when they make two or three great plays and forget to defend on the next possession. This sounds to me like a young, immature team. Billy has also criticized himself for not finding the right coaching methods to cure these ills.
Is this all Billy's fault? Yea, it is. He is the head coach. It is up to him to get his team to play at peak performance. But this is the worst shooting team he has ever had. I need to go back and look, but I will bet it is the worst at the FT line. Especially at critical times. And rarely do any of the players step up at the end of games and do something offensively to win a game.
This is just going to be a rare bad year for Billy. Not dissimilar to the two years after he won his second title.
This appears to be a group that just doesn't respond well to pressure, either from the game or from their head coach. Patric young and Wilbekin got mad when Billy challenged them and worked like hell to up their games. These guys get rattled and feel sorry for themselves.
Chiozza is an example of a tough minded guy who will probably thrive under Billy. He reminds me of Taurean Green a little bit.
Chiozza is an example of a tough minded guy who will probably thrive under Billy. He reminds me of Taurean Green a little bit.
I don't think anybody believes Donovan became 'dumb' overnight, I mean that's obviously an exaggeration. But even if you believe it's the players (and it is) it's still ultimately Donovan's fault, nobody forced him to recruit these guys. And as Brad and Paco mentioned, we seemed to have shifted our recruiting from signing prep guys to trying to fill out the roster with a bunch of transfers hoping for a quick fix. Anyone doubt that's contributed to the lack of chemistry? We're clearly in a rebuilding year yet we're playing walk-on's and transfers over our young guys we should be developing.
Now what does that all mean? Just like you said, it's a rare down year. Donovan is still one of the top 5 coaches in the game and we're lucky to have him. But I don't think we shouldn't be able to fairly criticize this year given all the issues. It can't be ALL of the players. If that's the case, then last year with all the success was ALL the players too. Can't have it both ways.
Now what does that all mean? Just like you said, it's a rare down year. Donovan is still one of the top 5 coaches in the game and we're lucky to have him. But I don't think we shouldn't be able to fairly criticize this year given all the issues. It can't be ALL of the players. If that's the case, then last year with all the success was ALL the players too. Can't have it both ways.
oozie, Billy has missed on some significant signed recruits. Ones that transferred out. Had that not happened, it would not have been necessary to rely so much on transfers. Again, this all Billy's responsibility, but it is not like he can't read a roster and recruit to fill that roster.
2014 recruits
Chiozza (as brad pointed out, he is going to be good.)
Robinson (starting to figure it out. Will be very good. Still needs a year or two more)
Francis (supposedly the best of the three in practice. Especially offensively. Academically ineligible until next year)
2013
Hill
Walker
Nothing more needs to be said how disappointing these two guys have been. Especially Walker. At least Hill shows occasional brilliance
2012
Frazier (good player)
Ogbueze (sg, transferred out. Doing OK with his new team)
Graham (transfered out)
Devone Walker (hurt, could have been a contributor at SF)
2011
Beal (enough said)
Brissett (transferred out, played football)
Saunders (transferred out, played football)
So, Billy has had four players transfer out. Plus one out for the year due to injury and one ineligible. That is six players gone. That is a lot.
I guess to your point, and to brad's point, one clear problem with these classes is the lack of big men. Only Chris Walker can be said to be a center/SF type. Maybe Robinson, if he bulks up. So Billy has had to rely on transfers for big men. Had Harris not lost his mind, he could have really contributed this year.
2014 recruits
Chiozza (as brad pointed out, he is going to be good.)
Robinson (starting to figure it out. Will be very good. Still needs a year or two more)
Francis (supposedly the best of the three in practice. Especially offensively. Academically ineligible until next year)
2013
Hill
Walker
Nothing more needs to be said how disappointing these two guys have been. Especially Walker. At least Hill shows occasional brilliance
2012
Frazier (good player)
Ogbueze (sg, transferred out. Doing OK with his new team)
Graham (transfered out)
Devone Walker (hurt, could have been a contributor at SF)
2011
Beal (enough said)
Brissett (transferred out, played football)
Saunders (transferred out, played football)
So, Billy has had four players transfer out. Plus one out for the year due to injury and one ineligible. That is six players gone. That is a lot.
I guess to your point, and to brad's point, one clear problem with these classes is the lack of big men. Only Chris Walker can be said to be a center/SF type. Maybe Robinson, if he bulks up. So Billy has had to rely on transfers for big men. Had Harris not lost his mind, he could have really contributed this year.
