I took that knucklehead off Ignore to see what all the fuss was about. And instantly regretted it.
Supreme court agrees to take up Mississippi abortion case which would ban most abortions after 15 weeks
- Thread starter Orangeclad
- Start date
Here are 100 verses for you. 1 should be enough.
I think a fetus is a human and should have legal rights. Im not saying the morning after pill is bad and i have to be honest, at 6 weeks i didnt see a human on the sonogram, at 12 weeks i definitely saw a human. The argument of "when" it becomes a human is the one to have. I believe that happens way before 22 weeks. As i said, i would change a lot tho, free contraceptives should be a given, free healthcare for the mother and child should be a given. I truly believe that politicizing a babys life is one of the most disgusting things our society has done (on par or worse than slavery). We need to help women not get pregnant if they dont want to but help them if they accidentally do. We also should help and protect those who cant speak for themselves, they dont have a voice, so they need someone to fight for them.
Excellent synopsis. It does boil down to when you legally defined it as not a fetus but a human. Currently over 70% of the United States is in favor of some type of access to abortion, mcGiniss just boils down to win during the term of the pregnancy it should be allowed and mostly that is decided at the state level at present. What the supreme court case will help determine is what restrictions, if any, the state complacent abortion.
The point I’m simply making is it’s a non-winning political argument for conservatives and they use it like a hammer against us during elections.
And I completely agree that the gospel ain’t got shit to do with it thank God.
Curious, did you go through and read these?Here are 100 verses for you. 1 should be enough.
If not you should, because there’s not a single thing in here that’s part of the “gospel” that says abortion should be illegal.
Also curious, what do you guys think of sharia law?
@Dr. Curmudgeon
@theswamp15
I never once used the gospel for my argument so I’m not sure what point you are trying to make? Again you can’t counter my argument which I figured would happen
I have not used religion once in my argument so again I’m not sure why you want my opinion on religion so bad.
You want my opinion on sharia law? It’s terrible. One of the worst experiences of my life was seeing a woman’s headless body for teaching local girls in her village on my last deployment.
Should be one law for the land, regardless of where you were born or what religion you believe in. Something i would add is that as we allow immigrants in they should have to attend a mandatory meeting/class that tells them about the law of the land so there is no co fusion. This should be done before they are let into the country imo but not sure if its currently viable because of the back log and terrible immigration system that we have.
Do not disagree with you at all about legal immigrants having to learn about our country and the laws, which interestingly enough legal immigrants do you have to take civics classes.
But you lost me at one more for the land, because you do realize we have 51 different state laws as well as a federal legal system, so, in essence, we have 51 different legal systems in America that are all very similar and all must abide by federal lawn when there is a conflict between the two.
Yeah I saw a couple of decapitated Iraqis myself that were from the wrong tribe at the wrong time.
So if you do not have a biblical argument against abortion nor a religious one, and if you can keep this as an intellectual exchange of ideas between two people and not a lecture, would you mind me asking what is your argument against abortion? I mean why do you care what a woman does with her pregnancy?
because I believe the most valuable right is the right to life. If we cannot guarantee people the right to life then no other rights matter. Why is the argument always about the woman’s choice and not the choice of the unborn? Did the woman not have a choice to engage in an activity that could cause pregnancy?
once someone is born they can lose that right just like people lose other rights based on various acts. But everyone should be guaranteed the right to life, women have control over their bodies. Nobody is forcing women to get a load blown in then causing a child.
it’s really a pretty simple argument and how anyone can not see that is what scares me. My argument isn’t about a woman’s body, it’s about the other body she’s trying to end.
Plus there's the Ten Commandments: Thou Shalt Not Kill.Here are 100 verses for you. 1 should be enough.
The scariest part in all this is that a supposed doctor is the one attempting to troll Christians over their belief that an innocent life should be protected.
THAT is truly scary as hell.
42 Instances - Page 2 of 2 - Sort by Book Order
Jeremiah 7:6 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextIf ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
Matthew 27:24 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextWhen Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
2 Kings 21:16 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextMoreover Manasseh shed innocent blood very much, till he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another; beside his sin wherewith he made Judah to sin, in doing that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.
Isaiah 59:7 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextTheir feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.
Jeremiah 22:3 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextThus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
Psalms 106:38 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextAnd shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
Deuteronomy 21:8 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextBe merciful, O LORD, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed, and lay not innocent blood unto thy people of Israel's charge. And the blood shall be forgiven them.
Jeremiah 22:17 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextBut thine eyes and thine heart are not but for thy covetousness, and for to shed innocent blood, and for oppression, and for violence, to do it.
Jeremiah 26:15 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextBut know ye for certain, that if ye put me to death, ye shall surely bring innocent blood upon yourselves, and upon this city, and upon the inhabitants thereof: for of a truth the LORD hath sent me unto you to speak all these words in your ears.
1 Samuel 19:5 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextFor he did put his life in his hand, and slew the Philistine, and the LORD wrought a great salvation for all Israel: thou sawest it, and didst rejoice: wherefore then wilt thou sin against innocent blood, to slay David without a cause?
1 Kings 2:31 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextAnd the king said unto him, Do as he hath said, and fall upon him, and bury him; that thou mayest take away the innocent blood, which Joab shed, from me, and from the house of my father.
Jonah 1:14 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextWherefore they cried unto the LORD, and said, We beseech thee, O LORD, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee.
Romans 13:8-10
Chapter Parallel Compare
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being. 6 “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/passage/?q=matthew+15:18-19
Genesis 9:5-6
Exodus 20:13 - Thou shalt not kill.
Psalms 139:13 - 127:16 - For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. (Read More...)
Isaiah 49:1 - Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Exodus 21:22-25 - If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. (Read More...)
Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Luke 1:41 - And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Proverbs 6:16-19 - These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: (Read More...)
Ecclesiastes 11:5 - As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
Psalms 22:10 - I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Psalms 106:38-39 - And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. (Read More...)
Yeah but what about a woman that does all the right things to try and prevent pregnancy, which is only about 98 to 99% effective, and then she ends up pregnant anyway?
And of course you to find life is the moment of conception but well over 28% of all pregnancies and in miscarriage within the first trimester. Because of fetus in the first trimester is not viable.
And of course by United States law a fetus is not considered life and therefore not afforded the protection as you would get it. Where is I might Morley agree with you, legally, this country does not define life the same as you do. So do we not bend and acquiesce to the will of the people in these things?
That said your principles do you credit but you and I both know that life is not valued as much by societies as we’re trying to make it out to be in this discussion. Life is quite cheap and most societies.
I guess in the end my thought on this is I’m not willing to destroy our country to force my views or principles on others, I’ve seen too much death in the name of imposing One societies views on another.
I’ll grant you though, it is a complicated topic.
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There are plenty of verses in the gospels that discuss murder, taking of life, and the sanctity of life. Are you trying to be obtuse? Because yes, I did read them. Every single one of them. And yes, there are plenty of instances of murder, sexual immorality etc...
If you are truly this curious....google sanctity of life. There are so many foundational scriptures and teachings that back up....sanctity of life. However, I am not sure you are honestly seeking information.
@Dr. Curmudgeon
So do you have anything from the gospel that says abortion is against the teachings of Jesus Christ?
And would you impose a religious legal code on our nation such as sharia law Over our current legal system? Because according to our current legal system, abortion is not murder. Can I find nothing in the gospel that says abortion is murder, do you? Again I will wait a specific verse from the gospel that says abortion is murder.
Well of course you realize I’ve already answered this, see above, but I will say again 90% of what you posted is not part of the gospel, and the small parts that you did post that are part of the gospel (Matthew and John) does not say anything about abortion.
So do you have anything from the gospel that says abortion is against the teachings of Jesus Christ?
And would you impose a religious legal code on our nation such as sharia law Over our current legal system? Because according to our current legal system, abortion is not murder. Can I find nothing in the gospel that says abortion is murder, do you? Again I will wait a specific verse from the gospel that says abortion is murder.
If a woman does not have sex she is 100% guaranteed to not get pregnant. So again that was HER CHOICE.
mis carriage has nothing to do with abortion, so not even worth discussing.
if a country can be destroyed because it was simply trying to guarantee the right to life for everyone then I’m ok with it.
“If you don’t stand for something you’ll fall for anything”
Yeah but there in lies the point, according to our current legal code abortion is not murder and there is nothing in the gospel or in your gospel forces that says abortion is murder. Unless you can find one that clearly defines abortion is murder. Just because it in your opinion is murder doesn’t mean it is and there’s nothing in the gospel or the teachings of Jesus Christ that equates abortion to murder and there’s nothing in our legal system that equates abortion to murder. So given the fact that there’s no clarity on that shouldn’t we leave the final judgment up to our legal system and God? And not us mere mortals?
Yeah but if a man doesn’t have sex than no women get pregnant either. So why is it up to a woman not have sex? And why do men have no culpability in this and why do men insist upon imposing there principles upon women? Should not be able to go out to judge?And you really think abstinence is realistic?
The discussion on miscarriage goes back to the viability of the fetus. If the fetus cannot survive outside the mother should be afforded the same rights as a living been? There in lies the essence of the legal discussion.
The second point goes back to all the points I made yesterday. Government is made from compromise. Government is never made from one persons principles being imposed on everybody else. A current legal system is just that, 1 million compromises on each person’s principles to come up with a legal code that best suits the majority of us. Why should your moral opinions and judgments be imposed on the 70% they don’t agree with you?
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He's trolling Christians over their religious beliefs. Specifically, he's trolling Christians over their wanting to protect INNOCENT life.
Again, he claims to be a doctor. And he's trolling others for wanting to protect innocent lives.
And when the supposed 'doctor' can tell us how many abortions were performed during the time in which the Bible was written, then he might have his answer as to why the term 'abortion' wasn't mentioned in the Bible.
Again, posters that troll other posters over their religious beliefs are garbage.
Anyway, long story made short fellas, I respect your principles and in some sense they do your credit but you trying to impose your principles upon a majority that disagrees with you is just as displeasing as them trying to impose their principles for redistribution of wealth or keeping the schools closed or so on and so forth on us when they are in the minority.
And some of y’all need to read the Bible a little more closely and understand the difference between religion and God. By the way the gospel is defined as the narrative of Jesus Christ has written by the four apostles Matthew Mark Luke and John. The remainder of the New Testament is a theological elaboration and discussion of the gospel and the new teachings of Jesus Christ. In the old testament has nothing to do with the gospel.
🤷♂️
I for one am not willing to lose the American experiment over an unwillingness to compromise at all on the concept of abortion, women’s rights, and the rights, or lack there of, of the fetus. The making of sausage is an ugly business.
And some of y’all need to read the Bible a little more closely and understand the difference between religion and God. By the way the gospel is defined as the narrative of Jesus Christ has written by the four apostles Matthew Mark Luke and John. The remainder of the New Testament is a theological elaboration and discussion of the gospel and the new teachings of Jesus Christ. In the old testament has nothing to do with the gospel.
🤷♂️
I for one am not willing to lose the American experiment over an unwillingness to compromise at all on the concept of abortion, women’s rights, and the rights, or lack there of, of the fetus. The making of sausage is an ugly business.
The same reason that when a woman carries to term and the man doesn’t want it and yet he’s forced to pay for the baby. We can do this all day long. The argument is about a woman having a choice, which she does have THE CHOICE to not have sex if she doesn’t want to risk getting pregnant. Once again I’m. It imposing my will on any woman, I’m simply protecting the one life in this situation that everyone seems to forget about and be ok with ending for no reason.
if a person is in a coma and cannot survive without support can I unplug it and end it with no repercussion? It cannot survive on its own and using your logic I can go to a hospital and just unplug all the life support machines.
im not sure what 70% has anything to do with it. I’m sure at one point 70% thought slavery was good so why did we end it?
Nothing you have presented has been a good counter to my points, you simply bring up irrelevant topics instead of focusing on the life that is being ended due to someone making a choice and not wanting to deal with the consequences.
Ok...you are being obtuse purposefully. At least I know now. Goodness doc, you had me believing you believed what you are saying. I thought you were honestly asking for a bit, but the argument is so ridiculous, now I see it. Thx.
I mean....the bible doesn't clearly define giving someone cyanide as murder, but...oh nm we could dive into ridiculous stuff that is basic common sense all day.
Thx for being arrogant enough to think that some of us do not know what the gospels are. FWIW....read the bible enough to know that the old testament has alot to do with the gospels. TONS actually. Types and shadows of whats to come. You see....the bible can be read many ways....I wouldn't suggest from cover to cover, but rather.....find a resource that shows you how old testament correlates to new testament. Think you might need to do some more studying doc.
Apparently we need to study the Bible enough to reach a point where we would compromise on God's teachings, but would NOT compromise on what we think 'America' means.
Country over God? No thanks.
You know how I can tell you are not being honest? Why do you want to limit it to the Gospels? You're argument might be the most ridiculous one I have heard. I have seen nothing in the Gospels that say poisoning someone is murder, have you? So, just for clarification. If the Gospels don't specifically say something....the action is good to go? Do the gospels discuss specifically which actions are pedophilia? I mean, if we are going towards ridiculous, why not use whataboutism on everything?
I’m not trying to be obtuse. The Bible does clearly define that murder is against the teachings of God, little softer on the teachings of Jesus Christ but in a roundabout way, and giving someone a cyanide pill will definitely be murder. But abortion is not defined as murder by the American legal code nor is it clearly defined as murder by the Bible.
I mean abortions been around for tens of thousands of years, if that was specifically against the teachings of the Bible why would they not mention it particularly Leviticus which basically is a legal code.
Either way though, the primary point remains why would you seek to impose your moral judgment on another he does not define these things the same as you? We certainly don’t like it when they try and do that us. You would use the justification that you’re trying to defend the unborn child but why is that your responsibility? Certainly not legally your responsibility nor is a fetus defined as a life according to the American legal system. So why impose your beliefs on another?
See above all those specifically I will remind you that the old testament clearly defines murder as against the 10 Commandments and give them an idea poison pill obviously is murder. In the New Testament it doesn’t really define that as well except for the section of Matthew that says you should honor the 10 Commandments.
Point remains there’s nothing in the Bible that protects or defines a fetus as being life and in the American legal code fetus fetus is clearly defined as not being life.
In the end this all hymns on your definition of life which is a matter of personal opinion in regards to this argument and 70% of Americans disagree with your opinion. So why fight a losing issue in our current culture at the expense of giving the Democrats a hammer on election day? I damn sure don’t want one party rule. I think that will lead to more loss of innocent life however you define it.
Also, is it part of the point that we are not a society ruled by religious law but it society ruled by a legal code that is, perhaps, influenced by Christianity but clearly tries to delineate a separation between church and state?
As I said in my thread opening, this aught to get interesting, and it has. Abortion opinions really fall into 3 camps. You have one camp that are basically in the zero abortion mode, with possible exception of rape, incest, life of mother. You have another camp who want zero limitations to abortion. You have a third camp who want some limitations to abortion which is the Mississippi case.
Bill Clinton left office just 20 years ago. In just 20 years, the Democrat party has gone from Bill Clinton and the party saying that abortion should be "safe, legal and rare" to a party that wants zero limitation to abortion even giving the mother choice on a baby surviving the abortion. That is a human being and not providing that BABY with care is not an abortion, it's murder. So that's where we have evolved in 20 years.
Now the third camp are those who favor choice but with limitations or some restrictions. I do believe the majority of Americans are in this camp if I remember the most recent polling. Is it unreasonable to have some limitations or restrictions on when abortions can be performed. Is it unreasonable to say abortions cannot be performed in the third trimester, unless of course there are health risks, which should be a given.
Arguments can be made regarding how many weeks out before an abortion ban kicks in. The Mississippi case is 15 weeks and I don't know if that's the right number or not, but viability is a good place to start, IMO.
I do not think placing some restrictions on abortion is unreasonable. That is not taking away the woman's right to an abortion. It just takes away the on demand any time right, currently in affect, with exception for health reasons.
Bill Clinton left office just 20 years ago. In just 20 years, the Democrat party has gone from Bill Clinton and the party saying that abortion should be "safe, legal and rare" to a party that wants zero limitation to abortion even giving the mother choice on a baby surviving the abortion. That is a human being and not providing that BABY with care is not an abortion, it's murder. So that's where we have evolved in 20 years.
Now the third camp are those who favor choice but with limitations or some restrictions. I do believe the majority of Americans are in this camp if I remember the most recent polling. Is it unreasonable to have some limitations or restrictions on when abortions can be performed. Is it unreasonable to say abortions cannot be performed in the third trimester, unless of course there are health risks, which should be a given.
Arguments can be made regarding how many weeks out before an abortion ban kicks in. The Mississippi case is 15 weeks and I don't know if that's the right number or not, but viability is a good place to start, IMO.
I do not think placing some restrictions on abortion is unreasonable. That is not taking away the woman's right to an abortion. It just takes away the on demand any time right, currently in affect, with exception for health reasons.
Oh. So now we are talking two different things. Morals are not the same thing as societal laws. So now, you are asking christians to support gay marriage? Because the law says that is fine.
Again, doc, your an intelligent guy, but your arguments are nonsensical.
We have already shown things in this thread that you’re ignoring.
1. Woman had a choice and made a choice. Had sex. No one took her choice away. No different than having to live with the results of every other choice we make in life.
Your silly argument is that if the Gospels don’t specifically mention something than its ok. That’s ridiculous. But you already know this.
Lastly.....
Matthew 7:6
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Well now you’re being obtuse, LOL, because I’ve already answered this. The difference again lies and what you to find his life. Legally in America life is anything after birth but it does not cover the fetus which is considered unborn life. In the Bible also does not specify whether the fetus is considered life or not. There in lies the reason why abortion is not considered murder by the definition of murder. Where is killing anything after birth is considered murder and there in lies the difference. Seems pretty clear to me.
But simply it all boils down to what you consider life to be, Or, more properly when you consider life to be. And they’re in the Bible does not give any distinction that I recall of when life begins. And again if any book of the Bible we’re going to do that it would be Leviticus.
Morals have never been the same thing as societal laws, though societal laws tend to mirror the general morality of a society. That one is not even after much discussion as that’s a given point.
I do not ask Christians to support gay marriage if they choose not to nor do I ask him to support abortion if they choose not to. Nor if I ever said otherwise. You may correctly argue that the morals of our society are slipping, and he may work to change those laws back to your moral beliefs, But if a Christian is an American then he should obey the laws of the American society. Do you not agree or would you put your faith above the American law?
Well I have enjoyed this discussion immensely. As an anthropologist I find it fascinating and as a Catholic I find it fascinating. I urge each of us not to impose our sense of morality on the other, as much as is reasonably possible, while standing by our principles. Currently this is the American society in which we live, 70% support some form of abortion. As we love to say to others, if you don’t like it, change it legally or leave 
but you know as well as I do they’re going to use this legal case and Supreme Court issued to try and change this country into something None of us want and all of the sphere, one party totalitarian room which is the death of all republics.
but you know as well as I do they’re going to use this legal case and Supreme Court issued to try and change this country into something None of us want and all of the sphere, one party totalitarian room which is the death of all republics.
If she is pregnant after using birth control then she is blessed with a miracle, not a curse. People make mistakes not God.
Again you keep bringing up majority support as some sort of defense, would you have said the same thing when a majority favored slavery?Well I have enjoyed this discussion immensely. As an anthropologist I find it fascinating and as a Catholic I find it fascinating. I urge each of us not to impose our sense of morality on the other, as much as is reasonably possible, while standing by our principles. Currently this is the American society in which we live, 70% support some form of abortion. As we love to say to others, if you don’t like it, change it legally or leave
but you know as well as I do they’re going to use this legal case and Supreme Court issued to try and change this country into something None of us want and all of the sphere, one party totalitarian room which is the death of all republics.
If imposing morality/ethics on people is wrong then you can disregard everything I stand for. However, I will not shy away from defending my Lord and Savior. God bless.Well I have enjoyed this discussion immensely. As an anthropologist I find it fascinating and as a Catholic I find it fascinating. I urge each of us not to impose our sense of morality on the other, as much as is reasonably possible, while standing by our principles. Currently this is the American society in which we live, 70% support some form of abortion. As we love to say to others, if you don’t like it, change it legally or leave
but you know as well as I do they’re going to use this legal case and Supreme Court issued to try and change this country into something None of us want and all of the sphere, one party totalitarian room which is the death of all republics.
You are wrong here as well. There are many verses throughput the Bible that allude to lifes beginning. Including the gospels
